Career Chasing: How to Position Yourself When Considering Careers

MAVEN

In this episode, David and I discuss how to prepare for career change and choices. We took this opportunity to get David's perspective on how important decisions begin with planning and being flexible. A plan is just a plan and sometimes what we thought would be the path to the goal changes unexpectedly. We need to anticipate that things won't always go as planned and say yes to the opportunities that rise as a result. David Cross - https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-b-cross-b856657/ -------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript:

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;28;06 You're listening to the Oracle MAVEN podcast, where we bring people together from the veteran affiliated community to highlight employees, partners, organizations and those who are continuing the mission to serve. Welcome to the MAVEN podcast. I'm your host, Chris Spencer. And in this episode and joined by our co-host David Cross, senior Vice President Sass, Chief Information Security Officer within Oracle.

00;00;28;07 - 00;00;44;12 Here we are, folks. Season three. It's been a while since we've come together to deliver a new episode, and we're ready to kick off our new season with new conversation. These newer topics sometimes bringing back previous guests and maybe we'll go deeper into past conversations. We hope all of you are well and putting in the work to be better.

00;00;44;14 - 00;01;00;15 If not, listen in and maybe we can help change that. We have all we need to become the person we want to be. So let's remember how to connect with others with sincerity and genuine intent as we continue the mission to serve. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoy this episode and please remember to check in on your buddies and family.

00;01;00;19 - 00;01;08;12 David's contact details are in the podcast description and you can always find me on LinkedIn.

00;01;08;14 - 00;01;48;27 All right, so season three, first episode of Season three. We're coming at you for career oriented conversation, joined here with David Cross. Many of you already know. He's our MAVEN podcast co-host and he's got specialization in a particular career field. So as we were talking about what we should be considering to discuss in this new season as we roll into summer, but career choices, you know, this might be the season where many of you are getting ready to transition, whether out of service or from careers where being relevant matters and trying to understand what it takes and what people look for.

00;01;49;00 - 00;02;15;03 David's going to share some information I'll probe a little bit on, you know, before you make the decision, what are the considerations? And we've talked many, many times about this particular topic or decision making process in previous episodes. You hear about it a lot in everywhere else. Probably every self-help book is critical thinking, some sort of element of emotional intelligence, things that go into how you're going to decide what you're going to do.

00;02;15;06 - 00;02;32;03 It starts from, we believe, what do you want to do and the passion that comes through that. And so, David, it's nice to see again. You know, Chris, it's great to be back, right? You know, it's kind of like, you know, I'm we're excited about this next season here. It's kind of like your favorite TV show, you know, Netflix, right?

00;02;32;03 - 00;02;50;00 You know, selling Sunset. I know you get really excited every time there's a new season and kind of like, you know, when they went down to Orange County, Right. They kind of got to change it up a bit and talk about that. So, you know, I think this is going to be a fun season of like we talk about careers, maybe we have some some outside guests, you know, that also help us in like, you know, how do we make this transition?

00;02;50;02 - 00;03;09;12 We want to mix it up and kind of, you know, up it a bit and get people excited about it. So it's sometimes these seasons take a little longer than we like, just like Netflix, but we're, you know, we'll see. We can do better. So if anybody's been paying attention to every episode, David says, I look forward to these things.

00;03;09;14 - 00;03;26;11 It's up to you to decide if I'm really a fan of I don't know what you said. Would you say the sunset selling sunset? You know, I know you like all the real estate and the cars they drive and, you know, the Hollywood properties. So yeah, you know, we'll talk about that another time. Yeah, another time. Yes, it is.

00;03;26;11 - 00;03;46;17 You know, it it is always interesting. You know, sometimes we take a little hiatus to, you know, focus on other things, but also, you know, take priorities as they come. And maybe it's just a another way of just realizing what else can we do to be more impactful and how do we consider, you know, reassess and this is the after action review is like, how were we effective?

00;03;46;17 - 00;04;07;03 And, you know, are there other things that we should try in order to make sure that we're keeping up with the things that people will want to talk about or want to listen to? And so the one thing that we can never get away from is career choices, because we know, you know, that's that that's an important area of conversation in any circle that you're in.

00;04;07;06 - 00;04;30;28 Excuse me, but it's just a matter of understanding the depth in which to go into these these things. And so we're talking security, cyber, career choice. You know, David, I'd like to get into some of the depth of what it what it means to consider what choice you're going to make, what career choice you're going to make. But, you know, let's start with this one.

00;04;31;01 - 00;04;54;21 What matters most? Is it theory or education or experience? You know, it's a great question, Kristen. I know this like a big debate. Like I was at a conference last week and people were you know, we were talking a little bit about is like, do you have to have a degree, you know, to be successful in computer science or do you have to have a degree to be, you know, successful or get into cybersecurity?

00;04;54;24 - 00;05;13;12 And the answer is, I'm going to say, no, you don't. However, right. I think it's really the most important point is there's different ways to get into things, right? You know, just like getting into sports, writing notes to some people. Do you have a professional trainer, some people are. They get their their parents, you know, you know, kind of guide them.

00;05;13;12 - 00;05;29;26 Other people, it's natural. But ultimately, it's like, what is the result you want, Right? You know, saying that if you're a tennis are running, right, you have to have a set of skills, right? And you have to be able to demonstrate those skills. Like right now, I think around the world and certainly we're watching late this weekend, the Olympic trials.

00;05;29;26 - 00;05;45;06 Right. You have to have a set of skills. Are you in the Olympics, are not like, can you take a get a degree and get in the Olympics? No. You have to demonstrate your skills. So I think that's the point here. Everybody is like, if you want to get to computer science, can you write a program? yeah.

00;05;45;09 - 00;06;03;04 Can you show me that you can write a program? Can you put it on GitHub and let me see it? Same thing for cybersecurity, right? Can you pen test? Can you identify a vulnerability? Right. Can you evaluate a threat? Well, can you show me Right. It just like diving. Can you dive in the pool, not make a splash?

00;06;03;04 - 00;06;26;18 Show me. Right. I think it's the best place to start. No, I like that. And thanks for that. And that that I feel like many who would be listening would say, Well, that's the scraping the surface. It sounds like you have very specific examples. And I would assume then if I'm taking notes, that if if you as an expert or would you consider yourself an expert in these areas.

00;06;26;20 - 00;06;46;22 Yeah, there's always debate. Am I an expert or subject matter expert or am I an influencer to say I'm going to say I have 30 patents in the United States and most almost all of them are security. So I'm going to say, yeah, I am an expert for today. Buy that for a dollar selling sunset clip right there.

00;06;46;27 - 00;07;15;18 You see the reference there. Gotcha. That jokes. All right. So 30 patents in the U.S. You correct. Okay. So I'm going to put a pin in that one. We'll come back to it. So, you know, off the top of your head, you were talking about very specific examples of something that somebody would have to prove to you and show you and say, So can you help us figure out what if if I were to be someone who is interested, I have and I'm going to put a pin in this one, too.

00;07;15;18 - 00;07;42;19 I have a passion for technology and it just so seems to now drive me towards security because of either the career field seems to be trending or somebody told me that it's place to a place to go or what have you. For whatever reason I'm interested in it. What are some of the things that I would look at that somebody like you who would, you know, are are you're worth is going to be determined based off of the things that you're able to demonstrate.

00;07;42;20 - 00;08;05;12 What are the top things that I would need to focus on to be able to make sure that I'm aligning beginning my career choice or beginning the skill development that I can make sure that I'm not veering too far away from. Sure, I will. I'm going to go back a little bit to kind of my career and kind of like, how do I truly break into cybersecurity right now?

00;08;05;12 - 00;08;23;24 I think that there's a lot of people you hear about, go take this class or get this certification or this thing's on Coursera and magically you're a cybersecurity person. In the end, I'm going to go back is it's about demonstrate something. So I got into Microsoft. I was in I got I won't do the story of like how I get in Microsoft, but I got my foot in the door of Microsoft.

00;08;23;24 - 00;08;40;02 But I wanted to be in security. I wanted to be in Windows Security. And at the time I was in Microsoft Consulting, just like Oracle Consulting, right? But I wanted to be in the product group. I wanted to be in the Windows Security product group. At the time, I said, Well, David, you know, there's program managers are hiring.

00;08;40;02 - 00;08;59;08 Is that how do I be one? They said, well, program managers, they write white papers, right? They actually speak at conferences to our comfort customers. So, okay, so then what did I do? So I was working with customers and I found a need. Right? Because just like being in like in business, right? You find a need this time it's going to go way back.

00;08;59;08 - 00;09;30;26 This is the Windows 94.0. And they also had a thing called Windows Certificate Server 1.0, an exchange server, and say, How do you connect a certificate server to the Microsoft Exchange Server and CMS so you can actually encryption right in in in your your exchange email deployment. There was no real documentation about this. So what I did is I worked on with the product group and others in my free time and I wrote a white paper about it.

00;09;30;26 - 00;09;51;07 It became the Microsoft whitepaper, like, how do you integrate certificate server exchange CMS and getting it all to work? And it became a public white paper, right? There was a need, there was a demand and people like, bang, this is useful, this is valuable, this is security. And Mr. Cross, you did it. Another element is they said, well, they speak at conferences.

00;09;51;10 - 00;10;07;15 Well, I'm on the clock. I'm in consulting. Right. They don't pay me to go to a conference like now. So I wrote a paper or an abstract, things like that. And I went and spoke at Microsoft Tech. Ed And then I also spoke at the RSA Conference. I took vacation on my own time because they're not going to pay for me to go do this.

00;10;07;15 - 00;10;27;21 I took vacation. I got good scores on. There's to say, this is what I want to do. They said, okay, David, this is nice. But, you know, that's a one year one hit wonder. Like, just kind of like your favorite bands you talk about Chris Quinn before this podcast is Well, I spent time with that. Here we go there.

00;10;27;23 - 00;10;52;29 So I wrote another white paper right? I ended up writing, you know, over the course of a year, five white papers in my free time spoke at two conferences and said, Will you let me in? Right? And I said, Maybe you're not the best that we thought of, but great. You showing the passion things. We talk about this package, that passion, determination, the ability to learn right, and ability to adapt right, customer focused.

00;10;53;01 - 00;11;12;28 And they let me in, right? And that was the start of the journey, right? But coming back to Element is identifying need, right? Identify gap right. Go right about it. Create an artifact, create a deliverable. So how do you demonstrate you can do something? You know, Chris you think about is you know think about kids in school, right?

00;11;13;01 - 00;11;29;28 Things like how do you know what they're doing? Can they write a paper? Can they produce something? Do they have a project that's the trick here. And once you have, it's very tangible. And I would say, gosh, we'd let you into our company. You know what a junior position is like? Yeah, look what I wrote. Look what I can do.

00;11;30;01 - 00;11;52;17 It's very easy to convince someone that you may be eligible for that. Got it. There's a ton of good nuggets in there. Thanks for that. So the need and demand, I mean, that I think probably is a place to start for some of this is to recognize the need. And again, I go back to the individual need and the external need.

00;11;52;18 - 00;12;12;27 Right. So do you need it? Do you want it? Do you need to feel like you X Right. And that I think, is important. Do you feel like you need to do this? Do you feel like you want to do this right? And what's the difference? Right. And I think some of this is circling around a personal passion because you're talking about using your free time to do things that are setting you up.

00;12;12;29 - 00;12;34;05 And I'm oversimplifying it, but it is, in fact, one of those things to say, if I'm wanting to achieve these things, then I, I need to consider how far you're willing to go in order to have success there and some of what you were sharing. Again, you know, cutting it down to very simple approaches is to say, I want to do this.

00;12;34;12 - 00;12;54;17 You use phrases like foot in the door. That's common, especially through veterans or service members getting ready to transition. I just want to get my foot in the door and I will represent recruiting. That was advocate on the side hearing from a candidate. I'm just trying to get a foot in the door. Be careful with that because it's it's important for you to believe that.

00;12;54;20 - 00;13;11;11 And that can be something you keep inside your head. But if a hiring manager hears this from people now, it draws the question commitment. If it means that I I've given you a chance to get a foot in the door, don't misunderstand it to be don't misunderstand that to be something that's going to help you in every case.

00;13;11;11 - 00;13;29;14 Because now I, I as a hiring manager, I may shy away from that because now I'm looking at I want you to be here for as long as we need you and you want to be here. That indicates that you're going to be here until you have what you need to move on to something else because your long term goals don't include what you're interviewing for.

00;13;29;14 - 00;13;44;15 So put a pin in that one. But need demand. Do you want to do it? Do you need to do it? Is this going to be fulfilling? If you're in a second phase of a career, you've probably achieved all the things that you wanted to in the first one. Is this a transition from something that you're well established in?

00;13;44;17 - 00;14;06;04 If it is, you probably already understand the key elements of what to do moving forward. You may be questioning what you've already achieved, has given you the already existing mindset and skill and attitude to represent or demonstrate your desire, your ability in these types of things because you've done it already. But sometimes we get tempted to forget that because it's new.

00;14;06;06 - 00;14;24;09 We think that we have to start from zero, but maybe you don't. So, David, maybe let's hit on that. What? By the time that you were saying before you went into that first role where you wanted to get your foot in the door, what did you already acquire? What had you already acquired and accomplished to get to that part?

00;14;24;11 - 00;14;41;28 Well, I think the I don't know if I've talked about this before, but element is I've looked at the company right. And what is kind of like the basic, you know, kind of criteria they're looking at for someone that would be valuable like. So I was going like, you know, my first role was Microsoft Consulting. What do they need to do?

00;14;41;29 - 00;15;03;23 Right? And so I tried to understand, you know, this is the days before LinkedIn, and I think we had heard of Monster Board was around back then and is like almost 29 years ago. Right. You know, it's like, what are they looking for? You know, what do they want people to have said, I they actually have this called the Microsoft Certifications, the Microsoft Certified Professional, the MCP program.

00;15;03;23 - 00;15;30;16 Right. And so it was kind of expensive at the time, but like, I'm still in the service. I took a a week of leave. Right. And of Malcolm all day is just a convocation of like a week on leave, right. Taking and things like that. So I went to took a microsoft class, you know, my third party, right, Because this is like 30 years ago, you know, like $2,000 or $3,000, very expensive for one week class.

00;15;30;16 - 00;15;48;13 Right. They said, I'm going to go in, take the certification class in tech, not are learning it right, get certified, take the you know take the exam and saying, hey, I've got the bare minimum, like give me a chance because I know that I could demonstrate at this time. Right. Getting those exams in courses were a demonstration of the skills that I had.

00;15;48;14 - 00;16;05;17 Right. That was in addition to that, hey, in my home time. Right. Things like that still in the service. Like I had a computer, I installed Windows 93.51. Right. I'm learning the Windows and T system, right? Because I knew this is what they need people to do. This is what enterprises are doing. This is the job I want.

00;16;05;17 - 00;16;23;21 So I'm going to get hands on my free time doing this type of things. And eventually it did this all. It said Microsoft, give me a shot at it. I've got these skills, right? Can you give me a shot and just just let me in and I'll demonstrate it. And a lot of a lot of work and demonstration of that.

00;16;23;26 - 00;16;48;21 And I got in. And the reality is also sounds bad, but it is the what I wanted is that I was doing consulting other things outside of Microsoft, but I wanted in the club, right. I want in the high tech I took a 50% pay cut to get into Microsoft because it was the long term. I was going for the long term, not the short term win a 50% pay cut of my stupid, but I knew I was betting on the long term.

00;16;48;21 - 00;17;13;05 And that's what you have to think about. Everybody. Yeah, that's the sacrifice. Right? So it's it comes down to just to summarize, what I heard is, you know, fundamentals. You establish fundamentals, certifications is, you know, top layer of understanding through information, right? You're getting the acclimate to be familiar with. And then what the key thing here is the connection.

00;17;13;05 - 00;17;35;08 And we've already talked about this, how important it is relationship building, right? So when you're when you're asking things of others, it's the reciprocating value, right? It's I'm give me a chance. I'll give you this. Give me your time. I'll give you this. You know, there's there's that part. So the relationship building seemed to appeared to have been key because you're you're you're you're asking somebody to bet on you.

00;17;35;10 - 00;17;57;10 And so through this demonstration of things, you know, it's it's important for us to remember that. The other part here is you said it, you took a 50% pay cut, which means it's only half. Remember, I was talking about you don't have to start from zero if you already acquired or accumulated something. So I know it's not the same, but just the context of some being symbolic.

00;17;57;13 - 00;18;16;05 You didn't take 100% pay cut. You took a 50% pay cut. So it means that you were in some place and then you wanted to shift and you did these things to prove value. You established yourself in a way to understand the fundamentals of not only the skill sets, but relationship building to to get somebody to want to listen, let alone bet.

00;18;16;08 - 00;18;33;10 And then, you know, you had to make a sacrifice and you determined what was going to be acceptable for you based off of the perspective that you have. This is a long term game. This is this is the marathon versus the sprint thing. I think you put I think you got me spot on there or, you know, four things.

00;18;33;10 - 00;18;51;18 It's like it's a transition. It's a choice. Right? And you take with every choice, it's kind of like there's opportunity costs, right? You know, there's physical cost, there's logistical costs, all the things. And you make these choice for that transition and that's what you go for. You're making a bet, right? Just like you make a bet on the roulette wheel in Las Vegas.

00;18;51;18 - 00;19;17;16 Right. You're making a bet is that return can be big enough. I bet the return was going to be big enough and it proved to be true. But and that's what it's all about, the choice you make. Yep. Choices. So. So let's. Let's go then. So now. Now we've established kind of the mindset you should have, right? This is, this is, you know, for those of us and I'll split it up into some categories to make sure that I'm speaking to each of you, whoever you are.

00;19;17;16 - 00;19;38;26 Right? So there's the early career folks beginning, which means that you've spent your latter part of, you know, your late teens, early adult life doing something to get to somewhere. So I'm speaking to you. You know, we're talking about those the mid-career midlife stage, right. So that could be, you know, anywhere from the mid to late twenties, all the way up to whatever.

00;19;38;26 - 00;19;56;22 Fill in the blank. Right. And then you've got the other right. And that's those of that of, you know, if you go by a job description, it's, you know, 0 to 3 years, 3 to 5 years, you know, 8 to 10 years. Think of it in the context of that. When when you're looking at qualifications, somebody is presenting you what's what's necessary to qualify for this role, to have a conversation.

00;19;56;24 - 00;20;14;16 You're determining at that point, do you do you match? And if you don't, you're thinking about who you are and what you bring to the table. And then you're you're landing on what am I willing to do and what am I willing to not do? What am I willing to sacrifice? So you're building your boundaries. That's important. So now you're at the table.

00;20;14;16 - 00;20;43;13 You have this conversation and you land on the opportunity where somebody is presenting it to you and then says, okay, show me. And then, David, you had mentioned, you know, I've done these things, so I'm going to kind of mix this really quickly into this next questions, because what does it take to get to 30 patents? Well, I have been in the industry for 30 years almost, but what does it take?

00;20;43;15 - 00;21;06;10 Well, the first part is like many things, it's it's like, you know, a running race. Right. What's it take to complete a5k? What's it take to complete a ten? Okay. Well, the first and foremost, the first one's the hardest, isn't it. Right. But with that said is how do we mostly get through the first one? It's usually because you have an inspiration.

00;21;06;12 - 00;21;27;11 You have someone that you look up to. You have a model, right? And often I think for many of us, for you know, that really get into running and races, especially after our, you know, high school, college, whatever, just in life saying, you get to go start doing a you're going to go do a half marathon, someone inspires you, someone coaches you, Right.

00;21;27;18 - 00;21;52;07 How you find someone, right. To help you through that first one. And after that, it's kind of like after you do your first five K, Chris, you know, is in the second one much easier. No big deal. Right? And I think that's what happens is you get you get that a coach and I think that's a big part of our topic here is you find someone inspires you, someone this that motivates you, find someone that can help you through that first one.

00;21;52;10 - 00;22;20;17 It just like in the career and from there it's then, you know, practice, practice, practice. Got it. Thanks for that. And that was intentional because a lot of us want, metaphorically speaking, we want the three patents. Now, I want to get to where you are, David. Now, why I'm asking that question after establishing what we did early in this conversation is because it takes it takes a couple of things to get to that part clearly.

00;22;20;17 - 00;22;42;28 And I'm not trying to be insulting to anybody who's listening. What I'm saying is, don't forget, it takes a while to get to the part of what you're going to consider to be the goal. And you don't know when or how long it's going to start or end, let's say. But you got to decide. You have to decide what it is that you want to do.

00;22;42;29 - 00;23;02;09 You have to now consider what it is that you're willing to do and not do, and then you present that and then you start. And I think any entrepreneur will appreciate this. Just start like you indicated, here is the first one may be the hardest, but we often know that if I'm not familiar with it, it's not comfortable.

00;23;02;11 - 00;23;20;05 I'm uncertain. I don't know what's going to happen. And that sometimes creates the self-talk to where we hesitate, we procrastinate. We, you know, we set it for next year. Tomorrow, we always say, I'll get it to the next time or whatever, but just starting is going to get you in the mix because it's not a one time one hit wonder.

00;23;20;07 - 00;23;53;07 It takes repetitive motion in order to get to the parts that help you understand through the experience what it takes to build the experience that when you get to experience or when you get to demonstrate it to somebody, they can hear it in the examples that you're providing. So you chose to go into this field. What were the determining factors after you've gotten your foot in the door and as you progressed, you know, what are some of the things that you seem to have introduced to keep you, I guess, moving forward?

00;23;53;07 - 00;24;13;03 But more, more so, you know, not only maintaining your motivation, but your inspiration, your desire to continue to grow. What are some of the things that you can talk through as far as what got you to want to continue? Well, I think it's hard. I think, well, I'll give you the hard part and then the easy part, Right?

00;24;13;05 - 00;24;36;25 The hard part is the reality is you need to work on something you love, right? And because it's hard to do something for 30 years unless you love it. Right. And I think there's a lot of people that say, hey, you can make more money doing X, right? Or but you really love working on cars. Right? You know, is like, can you some people can do it, others cannot.

00;24;36;25 - 00;24;57;03 Right. I think the thing for me about what I loved about security is it's always dynamic. You know, I think one of my strengths and weaknesses is that my brain is always working right. It's always going to be moving If I'm not, I can't sit there for 5 minutes and my brain not working, I'll go crazy. And so I have to be reading or doing something or running, running.

00;24;57;03 - 00;25;16;19 I can't be running without listening to something. I'll I'll go mental. You know, I have to let a podcast. So the thing about security is it's always dynamic, it's always changing. Everyone says it's always a horse race between the attackers and the defenders because it's always a horse race is very dynamic. And for me, that keeps me energized, right?

00;25;16;21 - 00;25;34;23 And because of that, then also also there's a demand. Let's do the simple economics thing, supply demand, right, to supply people that want to or can work on security and the demand of people that need to work on security, great. It creates a nice economic benefit right on that. And so I like things in life are simple, as simple as that.

00;25;34;23 - 00;25;55;09 So great, you know, it's a win win. And so I think that's what continues to drive me. There's always ways to move up, but you do reach a point in your career and say that, Hey, I'm happy, right? You know, because it's about we got the topics of work life balance. Work life choice, you know, is what people think as you move up in the world and move up in the ranks of a company in management, Right.

00;25;55;11 - 00;26;15;00 Life gets easier. It gets harder and harder. You always have to make a choice. It's like, what's enough? Enough's enough right here at the right balance. But that's a whole nother, I think, podcast on it right? But also, I'm going to go back to another point here is you talked about moving up. Is that the again, it's about a marathon, right?

00;26;15;00 - 00;26;28;28 It's a career at the long term is that I think I talked about it at a conference last week is that you stop, you get your foot in the door and you don't move to the top of the ladder in two years. Right. People that say, I want to be in security, I want to be a CSO, right?

00;26;29;00 - 00;26;46;05 It took me 30 years to be a C, so right here, 25 years to be a C, So right. Did I do it of one step like I became a leader of a five person team. And my next step is to become a CEO of a 300 person team? No, it's about a long term marathon plan. It will take time.

00;26;46;05 - 00;27;14;12 Right. And you're making a bet to get that point. And then you peak, you know, but it's not a it's you have to think about all the steps along the way. And those steps could take you 15 years. Did you know that when you started? I did. I did. I think is you know, I could say the my dream when I joined Microsoft at the beginning, I says, you know, the product people said, after ten years, I want to run, you know, building 26, Building 26 was it was windows at the time.

00;27;14;12 - 00;27;32;13 So I want to be running windows. Right. Be a vice president of Windows. Now, ten years later, I wasn't running windows, but ten years later I was running Windows Security Organization. You know, so I said a big aspiration, a big goal. I didn't get the at the end, you know, the full thing, but maybe it was little bit too aspirational.

00;27;32;13 - 00;28;01;08 But I got a big, you know, major achievement, you know, going from nothing to ten years. I'm running the Windows Security organization, something that affects the whole world. Can't complain. Well, in that and you and you hadn't planned for that. I never had say this clearly. It wasn't part of your plan to be that specific in Windows security because you were wanting to do just Windows, not just windows, but focus on Windows, which for me, not knowing the depth of it, is different, I'm assuming.

00;28;01;11 - 00;28;23;12 Was that a shift in your original plan? I mean, you know, did you realize that you were moving away from your original plan as it was occurring? Because sometimes when you're in the middle of it, you don't realize what's happening. So was that was that something that was occurring where you realized all of a sudden or did you see it evolve over time and then you started if your mind's always working, did you already connect this as things were happening?

00;28;23;12 - 00;28;43;25 You you were keeping a pulse on the shift away from the original goal. Yeah, I think, you know, I think that's a great question, Chris. I think it's it's kind of an evolution as you evolve. It's like you set a plan, right? And there's an element of you see some benefits of things and like what you get into a rhythm on you know, it's kind of like running routes.

00;28;43;25 - 00;28;58;13 Let's go back, you know, is the word of analogy. Like you start to run like, I'm going to run a marathon. But then you're saying, what routes do I want to train with? What routes do I'm comfortable with, What shoes do I like? Right. You kind of start to get to really to say, you know, yeah, I would do a marathon, but I'm not going to do a trail marathon.

00;28;58;13 - 00;29;15;00 I'm not going to do a Boston marathon. I just want to do a nice flat marathon or I want to do one that's, you know, of, you know, this type of terrain or you know, of type of things. And that becomes your preference And you're like, that's okay, right? You know, you adjusted because of how you feel, how you get comfortable with it.

00;29;15;00 - 00;29;31;06 And that's a big part of it. And as I got more and more security, that's where I wanted to be. I realized, no, this is me, right? This is who I am. I'm not the Boston Marathon type. And my going to try to be that right. And I'm happy with that. And so that's I think exactly you described.

00;29;31;06 - 00;29;50;01 I got it. So excuse me. The message then is don't forget who you are. Right. And the things that you've achieved indicate who you are. And if you want to have stretch goals, it's absolutely fine. But just keep in mind, because what we're not wanting to do is have you be tempted to stay where you are and then use the excuse?

00;29;50;01 - 00;30;04;24 Well, that's just who I am. No, Sometimes it's a choice in certain things to where it's who you choose to be. But if you want something different and you go back to what we just previously talked about, you know, what do you want to do and how do you envision yourself getting to where you want to be? What are you going to sacrifice?

00;30;04;24 - 00;30;30;17 Those types of things. So so always a demand, always changing. You'd mentioned that today. How important is security? Well, as you see in the news every week and it's kind of like, we did a podcast or we talk about, hey, the we've got a deal. I think this one will come out later. But like in of all the car dealers, right, You know, the software used by all car dealers.

00;30;30;17 - 00;30;48;19 Right. They're all shut down, right. You know, because of ransomware and cybersecurity. Right. It hasn't ended. It's you know, it's continued to be number one for until I die. Right. I'm going to say that for sure. Right. Of confidence in saying that. And I also plan on living for a much longer time, not looking. I die quickly here.

00;30;48;19 - 00;31;08;16 Everybody will keep running those flat marathons. You'll be fine. There's no risk. I pulled back, right? Is like I'm not aspirational. Go for marathons anymore. Half is good enough for me at this stage, but it's still important, right? That's great. It's something I love. It's still important. You know, I've chosen that and I stick with it. Right. But the same time, Right.

00;31;08;17 - 00;31;28;04 I hope I have switched companies. Right? I was at Microsoft, which I love, right? I went to Google. I've been Oracle. I do make switches, right? Because sometimes you just say that maybe I get too comfortable or like, hey, I'm not you know, I'm not expiring, aspiring to anything anymore. Right. And that's when you take that little bit of a a minor reset or a minor shift, Right.

00;31;28;04 - 00;31;47;00 Saying I need to adjust a little bit, make a move and where you go. And I think that's where the most enjoyment comes from. The do you think or how do you think technology influences that last part where there's always a demand it's not going to go away as technology becomes now, everything you know, again, I'm summarizing, right?

00;31;47;00 - 00;32;07;26 But how important is it where the technology or the the place in which you do this, how important is that in your decision making? it's very important. And coming back to our conference last week, they spoke it is there is discussion which are about CISOs in a technology and people staying up to date. Here's a reality. Someone called it out.

00;32;07;26 - 00;32;25;08 I said, CISOs, if you're not learning A.I. right now, you're pretty much you're done in two years, right? A.I. Artificial intelligence is not going away. It's going to affect almost everybody, right? We go back to, you know, computers 20 years ago. If you're not learning, a computer are going to be able to keep a job. No way. Right.

00;32;25;11 - 00;32;51;28 Nowadays, can you can anyone get a job and not use a computer anywhere anymore? Right. Almost impossible. Right. There's maybe a few things. Agriculture, maybe not. But putting that aside. So now looking forward in many of our jobs is not just technical people, but he is part of the life for the rest of our lives. Right? If you can't adapt to that, you cannot learn that you're going to be stale in two years.

00;32;52;02 - 00;33;19;06 Right. And I think that's the reality. And two years may be an arbitrary time selection. Maybe not. I don't know. It doesn't matter. But the point is, whatever the timeline is, it goes by quick. Right. And so the preparation, the steps involved in order to get you ready as an individual that's looking to pursue something either for the first time or transition from where you are into something different, which is in the space security.

00;33;19;08 - 00;33;42;15 There's things there are things involved that takes time to accumulate based off of everything that we're talking about. So with that, what do you feel is the most significant change that's occurring outside of what you just talked about? Outside of I boy, that's what A.I. is going to change a lot, right? I think in a lot of good things, you know, But, you know, I won't say necessarily bad things, right?

00;33;42;18 - 00;33;59;07 You know, born and raised in Detroit. Right. And they said, you know, the seventies, eighties, Right. Robots are going to kill all the manufacturing. Now, they didn't. It was just a shift. Right. I think I give you the same thing I think is what's the other you know shift is I think the air power is still the biggest one.

00;33;59;12 - 00;34;22;29 You know, top of mind is that how do we there's a good analogy that or a talk that people say that the people that use AI are going to be more productive than ever. Right? That people who don't use AI are the people that are going to be in trouble. Right. And I think that's reality. So, Chris, are you not using AI in creating the transcript for the podcast?

00;34;23;02 - 00;34;43;00 We are. See, did you think you think about it three years ago? Could you think of that? You thought of that, that we would, you know, have a you know, in thought of that would you know, that's a great point and half jokes but not because that change adapting to change I think is kind of the the subsequent parallel here.

00;34;43;00 - 00;35;01;00 Right. It's a for me, that particular case when I was presented with, hey, we're shifting the format now you have to review the document. I was absolutely not on board initially, right. And it was because it was to me, it was an inconvenience. I had to read through it. Is it is it translating properly what it did do?

00;35;01;02 - 00;35;30;03 And I'll be very specific with this had this conversation last night, as a matter of fact, with a couple of my peers in the team that I was working on. It's making me better as it translates in the way that I'm communicating. Am I articulating? Am I enunciating how I'm speaking is actually now being captured in a way to where I'm looking at it and say, and I use that kind of a symbolic way of understanding if it's if it's putting into words the language that I'm using and the way that I'm phrasing things.

00;35;30;05 - 00;35;49;19 Is it understood on the other end? Is it being received properly? And so I'm looking at it from that perspective that allowed me to find something in the inevitable right changes and inevitable right. We do it every minute of our life. It's changing and evolving. But I had to I had to get my head wrapped around the reality that here's the thing that we love to do.

00;35;49;19 - 00;36;09;16 We love having the conversations technology that's using or that's being used in order to improve. This particular offering is incorporating A.I.. It's using now that technology to take words and make it available and accessible for other people. So I had to kind of think and rewire my brain on how I'm adapting to change. And it took a minute.

00;36;09;18 - 00;36;28;29 And then after a while, I started to establish a better understanding of its use through critical thinking and emotional intelligence, just consideration of others. I think, is the premise of it. It's going to be beneficial to somebody. So then I was able to adapt to that. And I think that is the the initial reluctance, you know, kind of what you're hinting is obvious.

00;36;28;29 - 00;36;48;25 Hey, Chris, you're using it today. You know, did you know? And the answer is like, yeah, I didn't really think about it until later. So there's that. I think that's part of the process also is, you know, spinning it back to career choices. It's not going away. And it's not just technology is not going right. Security is absolutely not going away.

00;36;48;25 - 00;37;11;13 In fact, it's, you know, one 2% necessary for everything that's here. The changing of it, you know, the things that are involved includes not only the use of it, but how it's now being are influencing society in ways that it's modifying the way we're thinking about what we're doing right. And it's giving us a better estimate of how effective we are.

00;37;11;13 - 00;37;31;18 And I use my example, use yours, but it is helping make you better if it's used properly, right? I mean, there's other things that, you know, when you kind of how do you say when you take it and not take it for granted, but you abuse it, you know, and used for other things, There's that too, which is kind of indirectly the same, but.

00;37;31;20 - 00;38;08;04 All right. So going back to careers, somebody decided this is what they want to do. What can you tell them right now today, if somebody was in front of you asking for that that break, what do you say? The. Yeah, the you know, the I have to say, I mean, to go back to A.I. right now, there's of compared to like machine learning from, you know, ten years ago it was very hard to learn and it take a lot you know, but almost people had to go back almost to college or college level, you know, kind of education to really how to use it.

00;38;08;07 - 00;38;33;24 A.I. is much different, much simpler. And there's a huge demand for people to use A.I. and how to use A.I., everything from prompt, not just from a security perspective, but I think as if anybody wants a leap in a change. Right now, A.I. is crystal clear. There's lots of opportunities, and if myself, I'm learning it because I don't want to be phased out to be stale in two years.

00;38;33;26 - 00;38;49;23 But if anybody is, you know, saying you got a little bit of freedom, you got a little bit of time, and it's not going take a lot of time, and you want to jump into a new world that's exploding and not going away, jump into A.I. and there's training and education, other things jumping in. There's tons of opportunity.

00;38;49;23 - 00;39;09;15 Everybody, I'd like to see that someone actually knows A.I. and how to help implement it, you know, in a company or applications or other types of things, you can't get a job. Yeah, I think something else is wrong. Got it. What would that be considered From what you just said, like the most basic place to start, Is it just diving in?

00;39;09;15 - 00;39;32;23 I mean, how. How would I know exactly where to start today with what's available in order to not get ahead of myself by just doing a search for A.I.? Learn A.I., and then you start there where I don't want to start in the middle. I want to start the beginning. Yeah, I think there's a limit. So I think there's tons of things on Coursera, Microsoft, Oracle, others.

00;39;32;23 - 00;39;51;15 Right? You all have had introduction to A.I. and how to use it in their systems and actually getting to be an implementer or a user, right? Or someone that can be a practitioner, you know, in these things is all these companies are looking to implement. But not everyone's ready to jump on it. Like is like many companies, they want to start doing it, but they need some help, right?

00;39;51;15 - 00;40;07;13 You're like, Great, Google learn it, right? And then you can help other companies that need that talent. Because I know there's there's many companies, especially small and medium businesses especially. Right. It's like they're going to have people learning and onboarding to this in helping them know they need it. And they're going to hire people that can help them with that.

00;40;07;17 - 00;40;34;09 And that's an opportunity when there's a need, that means that's something you go after, right? And it's crystal clear everyone's trying to do it. Ooh, I was getting ready to kind of just taper us off to the start. But you just mentioned one thing. How do I stand out from others if everybody's doing it and everybody's using it and everybody's trying to learn how to do it, how do I stand out to be the David of 30 years ago today?

00;40;34;12 - 00;40;48;22 You know, I think coming back to an element is, you know, showing the the the artifacts of that. Right. It's you can start for easy. There's lots of things. Do you do you have a blog right. Do you have a podcast? Do you have a video blog? Right. You have a YouTube channel, right? Do you have a GitHub repo?

00;40;49;00 - 00;41;10;23 Do you have a medium, you know, kind of or substack, you know, kind of things? If you know some things, write it down, create an artifact, right? It's not about writing big white paper to write a blog, you know, do a podcast, you know, things like that, build your repository, build your portfolio of things you know how to do, and then you put it in your resume and say, Hey, Chris, you know, I heard you're looking for someone.

00;41;10;26 - 00;41;25;05 Take a look at my work right? You know, say people like, I look at your resume, I don't know if you know, do it like, hey, go look at my web, my, my YouTube channel, go look at my my medium blog and things like that and show you that I know what I'm doing. Right. And and guess what?

00;41;25;08 - 00;41;45;03 People will be interested, right? Because it's so easy. Because they don't have to interview you. Because people do it. Like interviewing people that might be worthless. No, it's a waste of our time, right? We only want to interview people that we think are going to pass and are be great. Right? But if you make it so easy for someone to see that what you can really do in total safety, right?

00;41;45;06 - 00;42;01;10 They're like, great, They're going to pick it. If you got the stuff, they're going to grab you really quick because it's so easy and safe for that, right? Do the investment. I know. Chris, do you like to be you know, you want to be a movie star, You know, many years ago. Right. And you had your your portfolio of all your pictures and everything's like that.

00;42;01;10 - 00;42;15;26 You got to have pictures, right? You got to be a movie star. You want to be a model. You got to have pictures, kind have a portfolio. So you want to be an eye, you want to be in security, you want to be in, you know, technical create your portfolio, make it available publicly, and then point people at it.

00;42;15;28 - 00;42;35;02 Now, I have to say, you're bringing up things that I'm wondering if you're trolling me and because you're in security, are you are you doing is there some subversion here that you're actually finding things out about me and you're finding in the depths of the dark web? I'm understand. Anyway, and we're back. So. Yes. Got it. So it tracks.

00;42;35;02 - 00;42;52;13 I mean, everything that you're saying, David, is it saying, you know, there's there's effort involved? Probably having a solid plan. Initial plan doesn't have to be 90% bulletproof, but you need to start with a plan that's going to help you where you are, get to the next step or to have a vision with Chris and see if there's a plan.

00;42;52;13 - 00;43;11;06 It's like I say, let's go to military, right? What's the target? Who is the target? What is the target? Then you build the plan to take out that target. Right? Fair point. And you said that in the past. I mean, you're consistent in that. You need to understand where you want to go, but also anticipate that things will things will change along the way.

00;43;11;11 - 00;43;28;03 And you were a good example of that, right? So in ten years, your plan shifted a little bit, wasn't entirely off base. It was just, you know, the azimuth just veered off from the original target in this case. So, you know, but be gentle on yourself as that occurs. Right? I mean, I think this is one of the things that's important for us to know that.

00;43;28;03 - 00;43;50;25 Nobody's harder on us than ourselves, I would hope. Right. Because that keeps us dedicated and disciplined. Right. And, you know, the motivation is you. It's not something external influence, you know, that's inspiring. It's not motivation, things like that. I think it's just a matter of be true to who you want to be. Right. Understand who that is, how you envision yourself, you know, a year, two years, five years, ten years from now, what do you want to do?

00;43;50;25 - 00;44;15;21 When do you want to retire? When do you want to separate from the workforce and live your best life in the ways that you imagine? Whatever it is matters less, but have that trajectory lined out with a variation, an understanding of a variation of degrees that will occur over time and be okay with it. Give yourself permission to be okay with change and then, you know, read the transcript in the know how it can be used.

00;44;15;21 - 00;44;54;10 Just to use myself as the example of what change includes. Any, any last comments? David And that's kind of I think the is I think always always expect the unexpected, right? You know, and things like that. It's like, you know, is, is we get into rhythm, we get happy with the way things are going, making progress. But then always be aware that hey, the unexpected, right Could be a minute from now, a week from now, a year from now, always being aware, being always self-conscious and is part of that I think is we've talked about before is like be self-critical, always asking, you know, feedback from others or your peers, your mentors, like where am

00;44;54;10 - 00;45;08;27 I going to stumble? Where am I about to fail? What am I missing? If you don't ask that, you know you're going to get blindsided every time. Yes, And that's a great point, too, because you've mentioned that before. You know, feedback having you're in your circle, somebody that's willing to give you the hard feedback that should stay. Right.

00;45;08;29 - 00;45;27;16 And that's the best quote that I've heard from you. Top, top three at least. Probably number two of the reality. You know it. You want to hear you want to hear those hard realities from others to help you get better. So thank you, David. And if anybody has any further cause I know we're just scraping the surface on this, I hope it was helpful for everybody.

00;45;27;16 - 00;45;47;17 But, you know, if you're if you want to shift careers or enter the workforce in the in the security space or A.I. or whatever, David, is it okay if people reach out and if so, how? Absolutely. You can find us on LinkedIn, you know, things like that. Always happy answer. I answer everybody that's always looking for some advice or connections, things like that.

00;45;47;19 - 00;46;06;26 I can't take on mentees at this point, but at the same time I always ask questions are answer questions, and in return I'll say, Hey, please listen to our podcast and kind of spread the word.

Yes, please. All right, everyone, keep moving forward.

Let's roll.