Episode 2238: Juliana Tafur on how to put Humpty Dumpty (America) back to together again

Keen On

The election is over and, is spite of Trump’s clear victory, America remains as divided as ever. So how to put the country together again? Juliana Tafur, the director of the Bridging Differences Program at UC Berkeley, has been giving this existential question much thought. What all Americans need, Tafur tells me, is the compassion, empathy and humility to understand the other side. But, as I asked her, isn’t that just shorthand for a progressive bridge building project in which the left defines the language of a reunited America?

Juliana Tafur, the director of the Bridging Differences Program at UC Berkeley Her work focuses on strengthening social connections across lines of race, religion, culture, politics, and more, to foster a culture of understanding and belonging in the United States and beyond. Through partnerships, multimedia content, speaking engagements, and workshops, Juliana is committed to ensuring that bridge-building skills and resources reach people and inspire meaningful change. With experience as a social entrepreneur, workshop creator, Emmy-nominated senior producer, and award-winning documentary filmmaker, she has been working to foster human connection across complex societal divides for more than a decade. A TEDx speaker, she has led and facilitated speaking engagements and training sessions on bridging differences at more than 30 higher education institutions and organizations. Juliana is also a 2021–2022 Obama Foundation Scholar at Columbia University—a mid-career fellowship that recognized and deepened her work in the bridge-building field, expanding her research on intergroup relations, political polarization, and conflict transformation. She is an honors graduate of Northwestern University, where she earned dual Bachelor of Science degrees in Journalism and History.

Named as one of the "100 most connected men" by GQ magazine, Andrew Keen is amongst the world's best known broadcasters and commentators. In addition to presenting KEEN ON, he is the host of the long-running How To Fix Democracy show. He is also the author of four prescient books about digital technology: CULT OF THE AMATEUR, DIGITAL VERTIGO, THE INTERNET IS NOT THE ANSWER and HOW TO FIX THE FUTURE. Andrew lives in San Francisco, is married to Cassandra Knight, Google's VP of Litigation & Discovery, and has two grown children.

TRANSCRIPT

KEEN: Hello, everybody. The easy bit's over! The election's finished, now the real challenge is bringing America back together. We always hear these terms from politicians and activists, but in practice, of course, it's a very challenging thing to do. My guest today on the show, Juliana Tafur, though, is somebody who's given a great deal of thought to bringing America back together, bridging differences. She is the inaugural director of the Bridging Differences Program at UC Berkeley. She's also very much involved in the Denver Foundation. She's based in Boulder, Colorado, and she's joining us today. Juliana, is that fair? Was the election the easy bit? Now, the challenge is putting Humpty Dumpty back together again?

TAFUR: 100%. I love the Humpty Dumpty. Yes, we are broken. How do we come back together and mend those pieces while still acknowledging the brokenness, right? Yeah. With that analogy, there's a beautiful Japanese technique that aims to cover the fractures, but to cover the fractures with a strand of gold so that we're not pretending like the fractures aren't there, but we are making something better as a result of the recognition of those fractures.

KEEN: Juliana, we've done a lot of shows about this sort of thing. In fact, I've worked with the Braver Angels group. I'm sure you're familiar with them. I have been to a couple of their conferences. There are more and more of these groups trying to bring Americans back together. Might one suggest that there is now a broader movement in America to bring Americans of different--particularly different political persuasions back together? You're doing it, braver angels are doing it. Many of the thousands of activists and hundreds of groups.

TAFUR: Yeah. There is so many of us across the country that work tirelessly day in and day out, around elections and before and after elections to make sure we come together. And yes, Braver Angels is just one of them. I could certainly give you a list that you could attach to the show notes, because a lot of us are doing this work and it's good for people to know that we're out there and that this is possible. But sometimes it takes seeing it in action and understanding how to do it to really trust that you can do it, too.

KEEN: Yeah, we've had lots of people on the show. I know you're familiar with the work of Eboo Patel. You've worked with him his book couple of years ago. We Need to Build: Field Notes for Diverse Democracy is another example of this kind of work. Tell me what you do at the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley. What are you doing that's different or unusual or unique in terms of bringing Americans back together?

TAFUR: Yeah, well, at the Greater Good Science Center, we study the psychology, sociology and neuroscience of well-being, or what we'd like to call the science of a meaningful life. And we break the science to the practice. So we take the science of how to have a meaningful life or how to bridge differences, and we translate it in a way that is accessible to people to apply in their own lives or to practitioners to help others apply the science. And in the bridging differences programs specifically, we do this through a series of videos, multimedia pieces that we publish in our magazine, Greater Good. We have a famous podcast called The Science of Happiness. We began in earnest in 2018, I would say, gathering what the science said about how to bring people together across differences. And when we talk about the science, we talk about skills, science-based skills, from compassionate listening to finding shared identities, etc., that have been tested in labs, and we translate them in a way that people understand how some of these skills applied, how they worked in labs, and how they can then work also in kind of real-life scenarios and situations. So we have a bridging differences playbook that has 14 science-based skills for bridging differences. We have an edX course that's free and available for everyone to take that also disseminates some of the science-based skills.

KEEN: Tell me a little bit more about yourself. You've been involved in this space for a while. You're also a filmmaker, so you're very much committed on lots of fronts to this. How did you find yourself? Is this a reflection of your own upbringing, your own experience in the United States?

TAFUR: Absolutely, yes. What you had up first was the page from the Obama Scholars Program. So a few years ago, 21, 22, I was an Obama scholar at Columbia University--

KEEN: And you were the founder, at least at that point, of something called Story Powerhouse. I'm guessing you're still the founder, although you've moved on in a sense.

TAFUR: Correct. Yeah. And Story Powerhouse was at the company Listen Courageously, which was a workshop series that I took around to universities and organizations and corporations talking about the power of empathic listening. And I got to that through film that I produced and directed that brought Americans together on opposite ends of the spectrum across the easy topics of abortion, guns and immigration. And the inspiration for this film came after the 2016 election. I felt a big need back then to try to bridge the divide that I was seeing and feeling, very explicitly, for the very first time in our country. And as a Colombian-American, I was beginning to talk to folks in my circles, and I was feeling this this real sense of othering that I had never, ever experienced and wondering and questioning what was my place and that of so many others like me in our country. And that led to to Listen, to this film that brought three sets of participants across these really tough topics together to explore if they could see each other as people and connect on a human level despite their differences. And I had no idea what the outcome would be. I had documented their conversations across a period of time. And I was truly moved by what I saw. I saw that those who were able to connect at a deep, human level were those who were able to listen. So then, that led me to study and explore and understand the power of listening and understood that it was a field. It's an arts, but it's also a science and connected with practitioners, but also researchers in the field of listening. And one thing led to the other, right? As a practitioner and filmmaker in the field of bridging differences, I found myself going back to intergroup relations and conflict transformation and other subjects too, to really understand why. Why was it that my film participants had come together, and how could I then equip others to continue doing the same? Less from a "we know this is possible" and more from a kind of research-grounded way.

KEEN: Juliana, some people might be listening to this and...whilst on the one hand being, in a way, impressed they might be scratching their head, maybe listening to you, you use the E-word all the time empathetic, which is quite a kind of ideological character these days. You talk about othering, you're funded by, or you were funded by, the Obama Foundation. Now you head up a greater good institute at UC Berkeley, People's Republic of Berkeley, which is a place I know all too well, I used to live there for many years. Some people might be listening to this and thinking if you scratch the surface of what Juliana's saying, is she suggesting that this is the progressive version of the greater good? And as long as you're in our camp and you use her words like "empathy" and "othering" and love the Obamas and spend time at UC Berkeley, it's fine. But when you start perhaps putting red caps on and talking about America becoming great again or not being particularly sympathetic to immigrants, then you're outside your world. How would you respond to that? Is that a fair criticism or am I wrong, or would one be wrong?

TAFUR: Well, obviously, people's criticisms are their criticisms, and that's absolutely okay. And there is no right or wrong. I just want to say--

KEEN: Well, there is right and wrong, Juliana, isn't there? There's some things are certainly more right than wrong and some things are more wrong and right.

TAFUR: Yes, but we don't judge that. I think, you know, people are right to believe what they believe, vote for who they vote, and be who they are. And we start bridging from the place of: I see you, and I hear you, and I might not understand you, but that's okay. I still don't dehumanize you. And that's the spirit of bridging differences. And yes, I don't hide where I stand. Politically, I am more progressive. And I have been an Obama scholar. And I work at Berkeley. So all of that is who I am. And from that place, I bridge. I bridge from the place of this is who I am, where I stand. I still love you and I still want to get to know you. And I still want to see you. And I just want to say, given that I'm Colombian American and I lived in Miami for the last ten years, I just recently moved to Boulder, Colorado, to lead a statewide initiative here in the state of Colorado called Belonging Colorado to make Colorado a place where everyone feels like they belong. Thank you for popping it up.

KEEN: Called Belonging Colorado

.

TAFUR: Yeah, in Florida, I mean, I've had friends and neighbors who don't think like I do, who don't see the world like I do. And I've appreciated that. And I have not excluded them from our circles, from trying deeply to learn and understand what is it that they believe, what they believe. So I intentionally have made way to understand our country and and to try to tap into, honestly, what at the end of the day, are people's fears of what we need. And I approach them from that place. When you approach others from a place of "we are all walking with our fears in our foreheads," we begin to connect with your fear, my fear. But it's all fear and it's okay.

KEEN: You used the term "humanizing differences," Juliana. Some people, again, might be listening and thinking to themselves, well, the guy who just won the election, more Americans voted for him than the other candidate. It's quite a decisive election. He doesn't seem to be in the business of "humanizing differences." In fact, many of the people he doesn't like, he seems, some people believe, I tend to be sympathetic there, he's dehumanizing them. So. So what do we do in an America, where the next president is, or appears to be, very often in the business of dehumanization?

TAFUR: Hopefully we take back the narrative.

KEEN: What does that mean, "take back the narrative"? He's been elected. It's his narrative.

TAFUR: It is his narrative. But as people I don't believe that everyone who voted for him is voting for the dehumanization. I am holding firm to the belief that people are good, and that people have voted for other things and not for that. And I want people who voted for him to still see that we need to humanize each other despite our differences. And I believe that they do. I do not believe people are buying into that narrative and rhetoric. At least not everyone. Some may. But I think when we take back the narrative, we take back the narrative of: yes, right now there's a winning camp and a losing camp, and that's okay. And I would hope that those in the winning camp also want to see across differences and are reaching out to humanize those who are not in the winning camp. And, you know, that is now that is four years. But our country perseveres and continues and we are interdependent and need each other. Absolutely need each other. More than this rhetoric, more than the divisive politics. Politics is just one aspect of who we are.

KEEN: There are others. I mean, you acknowledge that you're a progressive. There are other progressives who are preparing to resist the new--what they see as a regime, some people even think that the new president is a fascist. What would you say to resistors, people who don't believe that it's possible to, as you would put it, reshape the narrative or seize the narrative, that that the next president is in the business of dehumanizing many people, particularly people out of America and many people in America. And it's just pointless and that they're going to fight him, they're going to fight him in the courts, and maybe even on the streets.

TAFUR: I don't think that's the way. I don't stand for that. And I'm also trying to bring those people along. I think the only way out of hate, sincerely, and I know it sounds cliche, but it's through love. I don't believe in resistance in that way. I am for peace and I will continue to promote peace. And I know that that is hard for people in the far left to also swallow. And I know it takes time and I know not everyone is there right now, especially right now. And not everyone will be there ever. And that's okay, too. We understand that bridging is not the right thing for every person in every situation. We know that a lot of people who feel that their identity is in danger or that they're being disrespected might not be called to bridge differences. And that is also okay. I don't think this is work that you do by demand. And and we know that it's not without risks. We know that it involves exposing vulnerability. And we also know that sometimes bridging work takes small shifts over time. What we like to call small to large, or big, bridges. Sometimes you don't start with the biggest bridge possible bridging across the biggest divide. So we know that it's work that requires the right mindsets and skills and attitudes, and that takes time.

KEEN: You've used the word bridge a lot, bridging as a noun, as an adjective. I seem to remember Bill Clinton was very much in the, at least the etymological bridge building business. He would always talk about it. Are examples of American politicians in the past who have successfully built bridges? I mean, Clinton wanted to, of course, he had his own controversial personal narrative that didn't help. But when you look back into the American past, who are the bridging presidents? FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Lincoln?

TAFUR: Yeah, those, and I would say, you know, yes, I may I'm totally biased because I am funded, have been funded, by the Obama Foundation. But sincerely, President Obama has taken bridging and pluralism, as he called it, as the work that he is doing, that he is centering on after his presidency, and he runs these democracy summits that happen once a year. And and it is a message that he deeply believes in and is trying to share with others.

KEEN: Yeah, I mean, doesn't everyone bridge on their own terms? Obama campaigned aggressively for Harris. And in fact, a lot of people believe that Trump never would have got involved in politics had Obama not given him such a violent roasting at one of the White House correspondence evenings a few years ago. So isn't Obama an example of someone who bridges when they feel like it and when they don't, they accuse other people of not bridging?

TAFUR: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I prefer not to get into politics. I do bridging differences work because I am equipping folks with the skills to be able to do this work. And I believe in humans. So so this is really not about politics for me. It never was. It never will be. I happen to be an Obama scholar, but I'd really rather not comment on what politicians are or not doing.

KEEN: And I take your point, Juliana. But politics and the founders knew this, the politics in and out of America, is a dirty business. We pursue our own interests. Madison called them the pursuit of faction. That's why we have divisions, that's why we have branches of government which are designed to negate each other. Just as Madison so famously said, so profoundly said, "If men were angels (and he did say, man, he didn't say women as well, of course), if men were angels, there'd be no need for government." And I wonder whether...and again, I don't want a group for your movements or your thinking into one, but I wonder whether this kind of ambivalence, hostility, maybe even contempt for politics is problematic. When I think of someone like Michelle Obama, I have to admit I'm very, very disappointed that she didn't choose to enter into politics. She seems to be political when she feels like it. But not to participate in politics, she was probably the only person in America could have beaten Trump. Again, I don't want to turn this into a conversation about either Obama's. But my question to you is about acknowledging the dirtiness of politics, which reflects the dirtiness of the human condition, the fact that we all are, for better or worse, self-interested. Do you accept that Madisonian version of human nature?

TAFUR: I honestly think there is a better future for us when we tap into what we can be and not what we are. And I know it's hard for many to do right now. And it's hard when what we see as reality is what politicians do. And I do see some examples of politics where people are coming together that I'd like to highlight, including Governor Spencer Cox. And he's led a national campaign called Disagree Better. And he's come on ads with Governor Jared Polis from--

KEEN: Colorado, yeah?

TAFUR: Colorado. And Governor Cox is out of Utah, Republican. Jared Polis is a Democrat from Colorado. And I think we need more of that. We need more examples of that, politicians coming together and showing how they are coming together so that we believe that it's also possible. So I'd like to hang on to those examples in the political realm. But again, I'm in the business of what we individuals can do at the interpersonal level to begin to cultivate the right skills and mindsets, to be able to come together and at the inter group level with others.

KEEN: There's been a lot of conversation, debate after this election, Juliana, like many elections, about why and how people should vote. Should they vote out of self-interest or for the the greater good? Lots of comments about many of the people vote voting for Trump seem to be voting against their own interests, particularly the new American working class. Whereas the coastal elites in voting for Harris seem also in an odd way to be voting against their own--certainly economic--interests by voting for her, in your view, to get to this bridge and this ability to be empathetic and converse with others, do we need to overcome our own self-interest, particularly our own economic self-interest?

TAFUR: I don't think you need to overcome your own economic self-interests to bridge. Not at all. Because when we bridge differences, we are not asking honestly people to leave aside any of what they value. It centers on this recognition of, yes, common humanity, which I know is very abstract to a lot of people. But it is not about persuasion and it does not require you compromising your beliefs or values. It just requires the ability for you to recognize that anyone, anyone can teach you something, which is a term called intellectual humility. So, no, not to bridge. I mean, you may be putting your self-interest aside, or some of your self-interests, aside when you're voting for certain candidates. But to bridge, we are just coming together to see each other and to be with each other.

KEEN: You talk about intellectual humility. That word again, humility is another fashionable word that goes with empathy. Is there, do you think, a religious context to this? Do you think some of these movements, maybe yours, maybe even yourself, it grew out of a religious tradition. A Christian tradition? Humility, empathy, love, understanding. These are words that are traditionally used in religion.

TAFUR: Yes, they are. I will say that we have not necessarily emphasized or called attention to these character virtues and moral virtues in our work. We do talk about them a lot and we will probably emphasize them a bit more moving forward, given interest that we have in doing so, because we do think that when you talk about civil, moral character virtues like respect and curiosity and courage, you are meeting different types of people at different places. And at the end of the day, this is about becoming better people.

KEEN: Say that again: this is about becoming better people. So, it's a moral movement. You're suggesting people need to pull their their moral socks up if we're going to put Humpty Dumpty, to extend this rather childish metaphor, if we're if we're to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, we need to pull our moral socks up. Is that fair?

TAFUR: Yeah. I mean, we believe that cultivating these virtues is not just about overcoming current societal divides, but about nurturing a deep commitment to, for a lack of a better word, the greater good. This is what this is about.

KEEN: I don't know how many jobs you have, Juliana. I'm lucky enough that I don't have multiple jobs, but some people, again, might be watching this and saying this is all very well. Maybe in some biblical fantasy land, we can all put ourselves out and be better people. But most people are really busy. Many, particularly, working class people who perhaps voted for Trumo, they're working 2 or 3 jobs. They're busy. They struggle to pay their rent, feed their families. Does this require to be part of your bridging movement? Does it require, shall we say, moral...concentration? Or could you do it...occasionally?

TAFUR: Absolutely. You can do it occasionally. You can do it in the weekend. You can do it with neighbors. You could do it at a school board meeting. You could do it in neighborhood meetings. You could do it wherever you are. You could do it at work. You could do it with colleagues. You could do it with your kids. It does not require more than anything that you are already doing. It's just about how you approach those who are in your circles and in your life.

KEEN: What's the most difficult thing? You do this a lot. You run bridging programs. You run a school, essentially, designed to help people bridge. What does the movement most struggle with? When you see people who are open to the idea and say, you're right, I need to be able to talk responsibly with humility and empathy to people who I don't agree with on the other political side, culturally, racially, and all the rest of it. What do people most struggle with, what don't they expect? What would you warn people about who are trying to get into a movement like this?

TAFUR: We are very clear that if the other person is dehumanizing you, and if you feel at risk or threatened by this dehumanization, that you should probably be careful in engaging. So that's where we draw the line.

KEEN: Yeah, but then you're shifting the responsibility to somebody else. I mean, obviously, if they're dehumanizing you, you wouldn't want to talk to them. But what's hard about changing oneself, that's possible, that doesn't involve the other?

TAFUR: I think this just requires the commitment to want to do it and then the right skills. To engage with it in a way that you see works, that feels good, and that invites you to continue trying it out. And all it takes is the willingness to say, "I'm exhausted by this. This is affecting me personally." Because we do know that our divides are consuming us. They're affecting our health, our well-being. We also know our divides are affecting our families and our closest circles. We know that our divides affect our children in schools. So there are many, many reasons for wanting to bridge, for saying, "this is enough. I am exhausted." And if you are, you are not alone. Three. Out of four Americans are. 75% of Americans in the most conservative estimates say they are exhausted by the division.

KEEN: Exhausted by just this endless controversy of people not being able to talk to one another?

TAFUR: Yeah. Research tells us that three out of four Americans see political hostility and divisiveness as a serious problem and want to live in a less polarized country. So we are just trying to meet that exhausted majority where they are. Because we do know that people value diverse perspectives. Again, research points to this, and a desire to shift the political discourse. So we're telling them: we hear you. We see you. Yes, this division hurts us. Let's do something about it. Do you need some skills? We got you.

KEEN: Juliana, I asked you about other examples from American history. What about models from the rest of the world in these kinds of conversations? You often hear about the the reconciliation, the truth and reconciliation movement and Mandela, South Africa. Are there models overseas, which Americans can learn from? Americans often aren't very good at learning from other countries, particularly in Africa. But is the South African model a good one, do you think?

TAFUR: Yes. I mean, clearly, they were able to come together across incredible fracture and division, and they were able to persevere and collaborate across differences. There is also the model in Ireland that we can point to. There is division that is hurting countries across the world right now. And I know ,I come from a country that is deeply divided, Colombia. And Colombians have also succeeded in bridging the great divide. But there's been strides, through peace treaties and others, to come together despite differences. So we can certainly learn from other countries that have been deeply divided and in deep conflict and have come together. We are not in a place in the US where our conflict has turned violent, thankfully, at least not openly. We are seeing signs of violence, but we are not in the midst of a war (although it seems like a moral war in many regards.) And and I do want to point to the hope that countries who have been in deeper fractures about how this is possible and and hopefully also show us that we must do something before the fracture goes wider and deeper. And where reconciliation seems harder to do.

KEEN: Juliana, you mentioned Ireland. One of the things that comes to mind in the Irish model is the role of citizen assemblies in bringing people together to talk about very difficult issues. You brought up abortion, guns and immigration, in the U.S., the three most divisive issues, probably abortion, was and maybe still remains the most divisive in Roman Catholic Ireland. But the Citizens' Assembly movement in Ireland addressed the issue of abortion, and that was the way for the Irish parliament to actually develop some some quite interesting new legislation on abortion. Are you sympathetic to rethinking institutions, political institutions, political organizations like the Citizens' Assembly? Is this something that you've thought about, researched, is it part of a greater good future?

TAFUR: Yeah, I mean, I do think we need to re-imagine. I do think we need to take good examples, including citizens' assemblies and in understand what's going to work for all of us. We know what we're doing now is not working for all of us. What does it take? How can we bring folks together to the conversation in a way that is bringing us all together? So, I do think bringing a diverse group of citizens to engage in structured dialogue, learn from experts, and also deliberate over complex topics could be the way. Maybe that's what we need. Maybe we do need more public participation in the democratic process in a way that ultimately ends up shaping legislation. And it does align with our bridging differences program, right? And and what we promote in in bringing people in and fostering inclusivity. So how can we bring different backgrounds together in structured discussions so that we can move beyond these partisan divides? Because we do understand that some of these issues do provoke, I would say, a really strong emotional response and and also carry significant social implications for folks.

KEEN: Juliana Tafur, you've you've done very well with, my rather obnoxious question. So let's end with an opportunity for you to talk about, quite literally, where we go from here. You have some articles on your website, on the Bridging Differences website about where do we go from here, after the election. Perhaps you might touch on 3 or 4 bullets--concrete things of where we go from here in in early November 2024 that can bridge America, that can bring us back together. What would you suggest that's doable, viable, can be achieved in the next few months?

TAFUR: It's great that you point to that article. I was obviously part of a group of us at the Greater Good Science Center that was very keen on publishing this the day after the election to--

KEEN: And now you're on--I couldn't resist this one, Juliana, now you're on KEEN ON. I'm sorry for that rather silly joke, but anyway. Go on.

TAFUR: Yep, yep, yep. Well, let me just, like, run through a bit of what some of the experts and researchers who we invited to be a part of this article with what they said.

KEEN: And that included Eboo Patel, who, as I said, has been on the show. So you put together a very interesting group of people to write this thing.

TAFUR: Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, so Eboo is saying keep doing what matters to you and the world, and he's trying to get us away from this catastrophe mindset, and he wants to remind us that what you are doing is sacred and it makes a difference. And even if the world is going to end, he says, the wisdom of the sages says to keep doing your meaningful work, because that work is part of the saving grace of humanity. So that was beautiful. Scott Shigeoka, who's a bridging differences fellow at the Greater Good Science Center, is inviting us to practice curiosity as an act of love. And for Scott, he says that we must practice curiosity if we want to transform our fear and hate. And he's reminding us that curiosity is a trait that we are all born with, and it's the desire to understand others more deeply. Again, this does not mean agreeing with views that clash with your own, but challenging the assumptions that you have about people who hold those views. So a lot about interrupting prejudice. Jeremy Smith, who's our editor at The Greater Good, he's inviting us to work to promote your values in community. I'll go high level on some of these. Get to know other humans, right? Get out of our silos as much as we can and connecting across our differences. Dr. Linda Traub, who is a close collaborator of ours, is inviting us to be good neighbors, even, and especially, to those who are different. So those are just a few. Choose nuance, not outrage. So I do invite folks to go through this article and and hopefully a few of the golden nuggets of inspiration do stay with you, do motivate you, to do something. It's been hard for many of us to understand what is it that we can do right now if bridging even is the calling of the moment when so many are struggling to understand what this means about our country, what this means about the next four years. But I understand others are not and are celebrating. Regardless of where you are, I think in a few weeks when you feel up for it, I think the calling of our times is to come together and to understand, again, our interdependence. We must break this cycle of othering us versus them. That does that does not exist. Those are constructs that that we have created. But we are better and we are more. And we are one. And sorry if this sounds cliche to some, but that's what I got for you.

KEEN: That's interesting. And finally, Juliana, you mentioned one of your colleagues talked about what they would do if the world was to end tomorrow, what they would do this evening. It certainly reflects on you. I know if I knew the world was going to end tomorrow, I would go to Kentucky Fried Chicken. But that probably speaks of my own unsuitability for your movement. What would you do if you knew the world was ending tomorrow?

TAFUR: I would speak to you, Andrew.

KEEN: Oh my god, we can go together to the Kentucky Fried Chicken. Well, Juliana, it's been a real honor to have you on the show. Very interesting conversation, we're going to get you back on because this--one thing we can say for sure is this issue is not going away in 2024, 2025, 2026. Keep up the good work, Juliana, and we'll talk again in the not too distant future. Thank you so much.

TAFUR: Thank you, Andrew. Thank you.

For those impressed with what Julianna Tafur is doing and would like to participate, here are a couple of ideas:

* Ready to turn division into connection? The Greater Good Science Center’s 7-Day Campaign for Connection Challenge offers practical, research-based skills to ease stress and create understanding. Reserve your spot: http://tinyurl.com/7DayChallenge24

* Feeling the weight of division this election season? You're not alone! Join the @Greater Good Science Center’s 7-Day Campaign for Connection Challenge, to help you navigate these polarized times with science-backed skills. Reserve your place: http://tinyurl.com/7DayChallenge24

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