Healing Postpartum Psychosis

A Trauma Survivor Thriver’s Podcast

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, March 15th, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat.

***Trigger Warning: This podcast contains discussions of suicidal ideation and the use of psychedelics to heal postpartum psychosis. We are not doctors in the medical field and are only speaking in the nature of our own experiences. If you are experiencing postpartum depression or psychosis, please reach out to your physician. If you would like to support or donate to the movement for psychedelic advocacy, check out the psychedelic medicine coalition ***

Today’s guest is Melissa Lavasani, Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Washington, DC-based Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, the first and only member association focusing on advocating for psychedelics at the Federal, State, and local levels of government. Prior to founding Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, Melissa was Chairwoman of Decriminalize Nature DC and proposer of Washington DC’s successful 2020 ballot measure Initiative 81: the Entheogenic Plant and Fungus Policy Act. Inspired by her own experience of using psychedelics to heal her severe postpartum depression, Melissa led the Decriminalize Nature DC campaign to the largest ballot initiative victory in the history of our nation’s capital.

Lorilee Binstock 00:00:32

Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock, and this is A Trauma Survivor Thriver’s Podcast..

Thank you so much for joining me live On Fire side chat, where you can be a part of the conversation as my virtual audience. I'm your host, Lorilee Binstock. Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guess questions by requesting to hop on stage. You're sending a message in the chat box. I will try to get to you, but I do ask that everybody be respectful.

Today's guest is Melissa Lavasani, founder and chief executive officer of Washington Dc based psychedelic Medicine coalition.

The first and only member association focusing on advocating for psychedelic psychedelics at the federal state and local levels of government. Prior to founding psychedelic medicine coalition Melissa was chair women of nature Dc and composer of Washington Dc successful twenty twenty ballot measure initiative eighty one then

plant and fungus policy act, inspired by your own experience of using psychedelics to heal her severe post depression, Melissa led the criminal nature Dc campaign to the largest vaglio initiative victory in the history of our nation's capitals.

Melissa, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me. You know, this is the first time I've actually ever had someone in my studio, which Now, you know, is a closet. I feel so on her. You you should be. I would not let a lot of people into my closet, but I do consider you a friend

I met you through the whole movement, the psychedelic movement. And, actually, you have some news to share today.

Melissa Lavasani:

Yeah. we are launching a pack a political action committee.

It's called Psychedelic medicine talk, and is a way to engage with everyday noncitizens on this issue. You know, the coalition is really focused on specifically the ecosystem and bringing the industry that is coming out of that ecosystem to the capitol hill and getting them to advocate for changes in laws.

But we found that it was it's really important to engage American people on this issue.

There's regularly their stories in the media talking about and shaping up medicine, but,

you know, getting people are interested in this issue and getting them involved in the political process. To put leaders in place that will, you know, get behind this issue and congress and then and in state legislatures, is really important. That's how, you know, elections is one way to exercise our voice in this country, and that is how

we can really create change as if the current leadership is not supporting Psychedelic medicine, healing Americans, and just like have giving Americans a choice in the matter, you know, our with our mental health care system being so in in this this situation of it's end, you know, getting people involved in the political process is just really important, and I think it's gonna help us shift the stigma around he's medicine to his government.

Lorilee Binstock

Well, you yourself was not someone who was someone who did poking unquote drugs right.

And so this is kind of a surprising term for you. This was what twenty twenty, twenty, Yeah. Twenty nineteen my,

twenty nineteen is when I... Like, really found the solutions and, like, stepped into this political process.

Prior to that I was a Dc government employee. I was working in policy and budget. And

know, working at a a hyper local level was super gratifying. It's like the things that I was working on and I could and touch and feel in my everyday life being a Dc resident, And that was great. And I thought well, this is, you know, I got my master's degree and policy. A few years before that, I wanted to do something that made Americans lives better. I didn't know what it was specifically. I thought I would really go into foreign policy.

And that's why my entire master's degree was about is foreign policy, but you know, I think she... There's a saying you plan in god, a master plan and to just be, like a really solid public servant her the city of Dc was it wasn't my destiny at all? Yeah. I got... I was pregnant with my second child working and

our version of City Hall and Dc. It's called the Wilson building. Man having oversight of various distributions is I was pregnant with my second child. I was dealing with a really difficult pregnancy. I've been an athlete my whole life I've always been active my first pregnancy had no issues. But my second one I I felt it was like, my she was like, to sucking my soul in a way. It was like, I it was a very hard process. Like, my body was just not working the same way that it did. I was, of course, a little bit older too having children in my late thirties,

and I had really terrible. So, you know, being active was kinda taken out of the equation completely. I wasn't working out regularly because that, I wasn't really engaged with my health in general. I wasn't eating properly.

You know, I was just kind of there's franchise from the process and you're dealing with. And I had a little taste of what people who deal with chronic pain, know, you was on a daily basis and that I see like that has a direct result on your mental health. And I was... If it got so bad that I was like, crawling up the stairs at the end of the night, when I couldn't stand off properly, I just could've... I was not comfortable. And it I had what they call anti part of depression. And it's not a very well known term. I never even heard of it before this. Yeah. I've never heard of that. Yeah. There's time I'm hearing about it. Yeah. I was going in for a regular checkup And

my regular physician was on vacation, so I was seeing somebody else. And she walked in the door and she just like, hey are you doing? I don't know what it was. Maybe it was, like a female voice that, you know, it was just comforting or something. But, like, I immediately started crying, And like I couldn't even articulate a word,

and she immediately picked up her prescription time started writing me a prescription engine process.

And she's, like, just take this. You'll feel better, immediately. You'll get off of this after you deliver the baby. Everything will be fine and they're so healthy soon. Process. Now I knew that that most likely, wasn't gonna be the case. I've had two friends now, take their own lives, while they were all depression. Yeah I've seen other friends who have been on depression of various kinds for twenty years. You know, I I've seen them a struggle with tapering off of one and trying another one and just the uncertainty that goes along with that. So

And mind, I was getting prescribed this job, it supposed to help me, but I knew that

it could have potentially harmed me even further. So, guys. So I just... I talked to the prescription and I went home, and I was just... It did it wow with me and I was talking to my husband Daniel about it, and he was like, well, if you're not comfortable taking it, like, don't take it, we'll just try and figure this out another way.

But there's... Really... When depression, kinda takes over, it's there's you you lose the range of your ship and she... You know, something else takes you takes you over.

And no matter what I did, nothing was fixing this and it was just getting worse and worse. But I made it through the pregnancy, delivered the baby. He's healthy, happy.

That's I kid alive. But after, and I felt okay for, like, a week or two, and then after two weeks, my health just like, completely declined. I was in the most severe depression that I've ever been, and I've never had any mental health issues prior to this experience. I had a little bit of part with my first daughter, but that went away as soon as I could, you know, get my bearings and get in their routine again and I started going back to work and working out and to fixing a diet.

So I had assumed that this would just naturally go away, like, my other experience did or how that other kids happen. But this just progressively got worse. I was also dealing with paralyzing

anxiety. I was having panic attacks on a regular basis. I had extreme paranoia. I never, like, let my husband drive the kids around. Like, if the kids were in the car, I was driving

I was convinced that, like, he was, you know, gonna bake a bad judgment call. Like, it was very strange, the places that my mind went. And then the at the very worst part of my depression I was hearing voices and it experiencing to the idea. So And I believe that term, you know, there's, like, a term for a push part of psychologists. Right? Nothing nothing is very little data supports this, and, you know, we're we're not really given any resources. You know, You know, this your mom after you a kid. You your baby has, like, twenty checkup, but you have your one checkup.

Your doctor tells you you're clear to have sex and that you're on your way. And, like, that's the milestone for you. No one is regularly checking in on you and I and for me, like, I don't have any family in the city.

I have, like, extended family out in the suburbs, that, like, they're old and they can't really be his hands on, like, without somebody coming in and helping. It was really hard to kind of manage all this.

And in so and I was trying everything. And except you're were into depression. Okay. Yeah. That's I I was very

the paranoid I had about antidepressants before this experience was just, like, completely...

It completely exaggerated during my depression. Like guy was convinced at that point if I had gotten on these drugs if that would be my permanent doom, I would take my life, like, that would be the end of me. Mhmm

Wow, if I was just dealing one my depression without ancient depression, like, I I was experiencing I idea, but I felt like I was in control of that decision. You know?

And whenever I was ready to do that, I would go ahead and do that. And it wasn't a medication that was altering my mind and, you know, making me worse. Right. Right. So they can... It can. Yeah. I mean, and they can work for people as well. I've seen success stories out of this. But if there is another medication we can take and another therapeutic experience we can have, that's extremely effective. So far is what we're learning.

Like, why not explore this idea? Like, in real life application? For American people. You know, it can't be... It's already proven that's not worse than what we currently have the on. So So I stumbled up on a podcast and actually a friend of mine who said and he listened to this podcast with Paul Stamets, and we didn't talk to anybody really about our depression, our kids. Our friends were having kids at the same time.

Everyone was, like, truly enjoying the experience of what it seemed, like, And and I felt like, I'm really struggling right now. And I life, why I have everything I wanna. I got an amazing husband.

I've got two beautiful healthy children. I I've gotta roof over my head. Everyone's fed and clean, and we've got two stable jobs, like, what more could a oppression lot. Alright? So there were these also extreme feelings of guilt, like, there there's something inherently flawed in me that can appreciate all the guests that I've been given.

And it... It of course, it wasn't that it's very little to do with that. I mean, you can be surrounded by

I mean, my my last frontier took life, she was surrounded by amazing people an amazing group of women a community of women that supported her and helped her try to navigate through her depression.

She had a husband who is awesome. A beautiful daughter, you know, if a job she worked for the Smithsonian,

and she had all the support systems in place that you think would keep a person alive, but she still decided to take her life. So that's how, like, dire this disease is you you can be in a amazing situation in this phase of your life, but if you are dealing with this illness, you're convinced the exact opposite everything and that you're worthless lesson and nobody loves you, and it's it's extremely debilitating, and it's it's now we are learning it's impacting many more Americans and we thought it was. Yeah. I mean, the woman in Massachusetts right. The woman who was dealing with post part and the psychosis, and she took, you know, murdered her three kids. Right. And she tried to take her own life. Yeah. And it doesn't sound like she didn't have the support that she needed. You know, her husband came out not long after. And was like, please forgive her. This is not who she was. Right? And and, you know, that's pretty. Right? Like, like up million about to cry right now.

But, yeah, as you you think about, like, they... She was on antidepressants. She was on multiple anti antidepressants. I was reading about that. And, again, like, I'm not saying that antidepressants are bad because they... You know, for me, they were helpful for me to kinda put out the fire, but that wasn't something that I needed to stay audio. But like you said, like, for her, she was on antidepressants, andthe event that happened happened still, You know? Yeah. No one. It's it's very unclear.

What to do in the situation, obviously, I feel like doctors are still not.

They still have no idea. Yeah. But you found a way, Yeah, which I think

we really need to explore more. Can you talk about how you... Because you started micro designing from podcast the the Joe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The false Damn. Mhmm.

Can you talk about a how you decided? How did how was that decision making you heard this podcast? Academy. And what was your next thought? Like, I'm gonna do it or where you really had tip.

The next thought was more like exploratory. Like, okay. I I've heard... And I did my own one of the deep dive into the Internet about psychedelics in general, especially psilocybin because that's what

Paul was talking about in that podcast. And I was like, well, how can I do this illegally?

You know, like, let's explore what the real options are here. I could apply for a clinical trial, which I did and eventually, didn't qualify for those are very hard to get into very few spots available for people to get into that. And once you're into them, mean still might be given a placebo. But then I looked at there's retreats in other countries. And at the time, like, we have a growing family, we're too nice government employees like,

I didn't have, like, five grand to blow on a wellness retreat. But you know, that sounded so

despite the dire situation that I was in to get on a flight away from my new fan my menu baby, my other child, my husband, and like, go with to Jamaica. It it it seemed like, surely there must be another way. You know?

Right. Let's do illegally. Yeah. We had to do it illegally, fortunately you want, and we figured it out. So my husband went on reddit in Youtube and wants videos. I think he I can he grew up around mushrooms. I this was not a new concept for him. Right? He is from Northeastern, Alabama. He was taught at fourteen years old, which mushrooms to pick off the cow patty. Yeah. Women his friends would go listen to music. It was a part of their culture there. So he was listening to that podcast being like this it... Like, confirming everything is like, yeah, everything that he's saying is true you're never hung over. You feel amazing. You don't wanna do it very much.

It's not like you're gonna have, like, seven days in a row, a lot of the mushroom bend, you do it once,

maybe twice and you're good for a long time. So he's at this point in time, we were in couples counseling because I was the only way I would go to therapy is if he was literally dragging me there, our marriage was suffering. I was a completely at mother, like, totally disengage with my children, not knowing what even going on at school. My nanny was full blown, raising my son. They thank God for her because she really filled in and was that emotional support for him that I really credit her for him being such a great kid. And because when I went there, those years zero to three are super informative, and they say, like, the more effects you give your child, the better you are, the better off of Ar are the our adults they're more functional they're more balance.

And I was just... I was doing this very, very minimum. I was feeding. I was just change diapers, but there was not a lot of love that they were getting for me. So I had... And and my husband filled in when he used kind of social work background, he understands the system. So he filled in and where he could where I was absent. So I had at least my children were taken care of in that way, but at this point, we were so desperate for a solution that we were like, let's just figure this out from the underground. You know She can buy spores online legally. So we bought the spores and we bought rest of supplies that like lowe's or Amazon. It was not very difficult to finals. Size. And we just experimented our first time, and it was super successful. We had amazing they're color flesh. We had his amazing flush. And it was cool to have this like science experience. So like oh, okay. We are growing medicine. This is awesome. So we did in our bedroom. It took a long time to, like, have mushrooms that we could eat. But how long would it take? Oh, man. At least, it was, like, three to six months. Oh my goodness. I have, like, memory issues from this period of time in that race? And as do most people who deal with true.

It's it that was, like, the... I feel like the saddest thing is like, oh, there's parts of my kids lives, but like, I just don't remember. So I'll go through my especially my husband's camera role

and seeing and he'll be like, do you remember this? So be like, I don't what were we doing? I don't I really don't recall certain things with them.

But the... I remember the mushrooms taking a little while to pick up because it it's in multiple phases. So it was a a good three to six months before we had any. So during this time, did you what was your... What was your mental state like? Were you like, okay? Well, there is a way. So I'm I'm just gonna get through each day or was their days that you were just like, fucking I'm gonna kill myself. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Because at this point in time, no alternative therapy had really worked for me. Mhmm like I said, before, I wasn't going to talk Therapy. I was getting dragged to couples therapy. So, like, I hated that process and it's just miserable doing that.

So I was like, well, this is just gonna be another thing and if it works, consider me lucky, and then as it doesn't, like, either I get on the depression or I kill myself. And if I get on the depression, I show my kale myself. So there was really one option and one way out of this terrain, like, this I was convinced this was my life now, and this is just how I am and I'm forever changed. But I started micro, and, you know, there isn't a lot of data about micro producing, but I was really uncomfortable having a full blown psychology experience. These are not drugs I ever tried in my party days. I know it's never curious about My none of it. I thought I thought these were drugs were burnout out and, like, loser. And and like I I I had in my mind, the picture of somebody who takes a psychedelics and it's so funny that I'm doing this now because I'm I'm was so far off. Right now. Right. And so I was like, well, I'll just start with micro. Let me build up some confidence in in this process and dip my toes in first. And don't need to go all in. And was in a matter of of, like, three days. I was on the floor playing with my son, and that was the first time my husband had ever seen now.

Yeah. So he was like, for his my he's like be shit. Like, my wife is back The person I married, you know, And he always jokes around that he married me because I was quote unquote the normal you know, I was... I was a steady girlfriend that was just, like, always there. Never, you know, we never fought, and we had the most normal healthy relationship. I ever had. And so for him to see there's, like, tiny glimmer hope, he got really excited for it. So but I was still going do this process very cautious and not... Getting my hopes up too high because, you know, that disappointment I knew it was coming for me, but I continued with the micro and was getting into a rhythm with life, and was starting to feel good again. And then we run out of mushrooms. And I was like, okay. Well, maybe I just don't need to do this anymore. Mhmm. But my depression started to creep back. And we tried to grow another slash mushrooms, and it got contaminated.

They're they can it terminated very easily. Obviously, we're not doing this in a lab. Right we're doing it in our bedroom. So we tried to create sterile environment as my can make skin control matters,

And how does it can become contaminated? Just something in the area that wrote like he would whenever he was and not them, I think... You have you ain't knock. You said it's like a real different process. Oh you were sure. You can fringe. She was just gone to a farm.

I know. I know. But that like we... I've got two kids in the job.

I have time to go, like, Peru fires to the girl, Virginia, You know?

Can I just check out your cal? Sorry. They know what we're looking for too. I'm sure they're you.

Yeah. So this was like... And this was a way to do it in into us, it wasn't a controlled environment. No one knew we were doing this. We were two public servants, like, my husband has worked in Dc politics

and she has a lot of of very great hours of people here locally. And we didn't want anyone to know we were doing this. So it wasn't a situation where, like, we were asking our friends around

who had mushrooms. I'm sure somebody did we looked hard enough, but we were was very hush. She was... First of, no one really understood the gravity of what we were dealing with with my depression. And then

second, like, how do you ask your friends if they have the schedule one substance? I it like, send them to federal prison for decades. Do you know like, it is just That's a question that not a lot of people wanna ask

and So growing them was really the only option for us, and it was working for a really long time, but

when we click grow anymore, it became obvious. I needed to have, like, a a true intervention, and that's when I just got referred it. Alaska, and that was through one of our friends who one of, like, the three friends that knew when we were struggling and I say we were struggling. Was like, I was suffering from depression, but my husband was definitely struggling with keeping our life together. Right? You know, I have a lot of pressures. Yeah. I'm gonna hub for the family. And if if I'm not functioning properly, everything kind falls apart, and that's just...

The roles that we play. And, you know, it it was it was very hard on him, and I think that he is just now, like, getting out of, like, the post depression spells, and she blow back. That happens when somebody goes through something. In in a couple. But one of our friendswho Daniel talked to frequently about what we were going through

was like,

she had her own experience with Iowa,

and I

in my own deep dive of looking our develops and what the landscape was I Can let why are they illegal, what's the history?

Why are policies the where they are?

What is the cultural history of this?

I was somewhat familiar with alaska, and I knew that it was something that

people were doing in South America and they're having amazing,

like, benefits from it.

People

would eventually just

go down to South America

have a a week long experience and come back and feel like

themselves again, and

but my friend was like, that this like, you don't need to go to soften america like he... There's a guy. I know he travels around, and I only by word of mouth, he's coming to New York City in two months,

just take a train and get up here.

And I think that, like, I wouldn't have even been gone on a train if it wasn't for the mushrooms getting me out of the very doable bowl. But at least like, I was in a place I felt okay to

partnership it and like you get on a trains in New York City

and

go through this, like, extremely sensory experience

of

just like getting through New York City to Brooklyn where this guy was host this ceremony. And,

you know, looking back, That was so incredibly brave of me or like dumb. I don't really know.

I that.

I no. I need to be a little dumb to be brave.

But

I went to the strangers apartment and with twenty people that I had never met before,

including the the healer,

and drinking or drink that he

he made himself, and I have no idea what's in it. I have no idea what if it would test positive for anything. Like we are in, like, the fentanyl

days of already writing, we only need to be really careful what we put in our bodies.

Especially with illicit of substances.

But at that point, again, I've had a little taste of relief from depression and

I was...

So I was hopeful that this could be the thing. Right? Like, with mushrooms, I'm like, I don't know if this was gonna work. We'll try

But I've...

In mushrooms and Are very different to totally different chemical structures.

But

I knew that they were the similar class of drugs. So I I was very hopeful that Ayahuasca was

gonna be what helped me. So I had a few ceremonies with that And

that

completely transformed my world and

allowed me to start building

my life back and

I don't think without

Or without that very big

experience was like could alex

I would have gotten there.

But, yeah. That's kind of

what started this whole

entirely trajectory in my life with what I'm doing right now.

It was an it... And it was a miserable experience

it not

a recreational drug by any means they don't rely anyone with just wouldn't wanna take that to get like, to party. It's it's maybe it was, like,

physically

extremely painful.

And

you get...

You vomit, you get diarrhea.

You

cry uncontrollably. You laugh on control. They there's moments when, like you just you just don't know, but it's it's doing something in your body. It's moving your energy around. It's

all that stress and trauma that we store in our body

and we don't know how. But like we store in places, like, and in some people, it's different in me was my gut, like, it was

it all came out of my system, and

I I woke up the next morning, and it wasn't like I woke being like, I am healed. Know. Like...

But

as time went on and those days went on, I started to

observe in, like,

things with shift. Like my perspective would shift on things, and I would

be like, well, well, this is something

that's not good for me and I need to change that. So I slowly started to

change the things in my life that we're not working for me

and until this day, still changing things in my life that are not working for me. And I really do credit dialogue for that. Yeah. I feel like for from... I haven't tried I I feel like it is in my near future,

but I did... I have heard that, you know,

it gave them the opportunity to make some changes

that they were scared to make previously in their and, you know, yeah life prior.

Yeah. I mean, you...

People that deal with depression,

you gets stuck in these loops in these trains of thoughts where you're you're... Keep telling yourself the same story over and over. It's like, you for everyone's different, but for me, is it's like,

you're not worthy of any of this. You don't appreciate the like you are... You've been given every single gift in the world and you're just sq it. You you don't love your children.

Your children will end up presenting you.

So that you get stuck in these loops, and I found that dialogue alaska broke me of that of that line of thinking and, like, it cleared the deck

so that I can

create new narratives about myself.

See that's what I need to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's just really powerful and if you if you do the diet beforehand, and you're really take seriously, you go in there

with an open mind and you're willing... You you understand that this is not gonna be the magic tool for you that it it is on you

to fix your life.

And

you can go into that experience of the open mind. It can be an extremely effective tool. I have heard

people with crazy stories of

walking into an ayahuasca ceremony

and, you know, dealing with debilitating

arthritis and their hands are all cramped up on the like, the fingers all granted up other actually like, they can spread their hands open, like, they're arthritis. And, like, that doesn't like the exception here. Right? Like,

we

still

have so much to learn about these medicines, but also,

the culturally

people in south America Have been doing this for centuries.

So there's something to this. Right if it wasn't working, this wouldn't be a practice that's currently hell today. Yeah. And and that's

pretty much with after that I ayahuasca gun

ceremony,

that you decided, I'm going to work on de decreasing

plant medicine in Dc.

I remember when that was on the ballot? Yes. Yeah.

Is definitely not my first spot at all.

But I was watching One Denver,

and that was the campaign two mushrooms for the city of denver.

And that was going on wow we were going through this process with, like, trying to grow our mushrooms and

sixteen succeeding and then failing and then finding How I walked. And

so being

kinda experiencing in politics,

my husband's worked on a few campaigns as well.

We were like, let's... You know, let's call up the campaign.

Like, you could find anybody on the Internet now. So

we connected to with him over Facebook, and we had a a really good call with him. And just asking like, what are

the noncitizens of Denver saying?

About this, like, what is law enforcement saying about this? When, you know, what what are what are your marketing materials? How are you talking about this in general public?

And,

you know, for us, we were just, like, curious

about

what our impact could be.

I think initially, we were

thinking of just utilizing

the our network

of political people

to just

educate, I guess, you know, we never... I've never wanted to be

a front person for anything

I was always really uncomfortable with attention.

I assumed

that my husband would be the one that has, like, this amazing career and, like, things would take off for him

because I mean, he was perfectly positioned to do that. He's worked for a politician for

So

it it it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna be the spokesperson

for women everywhere who healed us themselves It was more like

Okay. We have we had this conversation in this conversation led to a connection with other people, and let's let's go have conversations with them too. And see how we can help.

So it was really just like connecting the dots as you go, like, driving and pitch black and, like, all you can see is, like, the next

step. Yeah.

But we kept taking more meetings, and then eventually,

We got connected to Doctor Bronzer folks in Dc. And so Doctor Bronzer is this

hippie show company that has all natural ingredients say I use work. Oh, yeah. Please use it for like, probably years. Yeah. Yeah that's. Amazing.

I love the peppermint. My favorite

in the cherry blossom there my

jam. Yeah. Yeah. So

I was like, oh, I know Doctor Bronzer, but like I didn't realize that they

ran to this. Oh, no. Yeah. Like, so they were... They've been really pivotal

pivotal and getting cannabis reform through. They were very active in Have form.

They... You know, David Bronzer puts

a lot of money into causes that he really cares about. A lot of that is regenerative farming and drug laws.

They were the ones sponsoring the Denver campaign. And

David is is pretty politically sorry he's got a team of people here

that he pays to be their, like, social activation team, like, they will put together a protest

or they will try to engage Dc council on this shoes

that are important to them.

Anyway, they

they were talking to dave the team here and David were talking and

they were, like, we if we could do this in Dc Dc is was it the forefront of canada your reform? Why wouldn't it

we be at the forefront front of Second reform. Mhmm.

But they knew that the campaign couldn't be run

by Cannabis folks.

Because it's a very different kind of subject matter. And I go at the time, carried

ton stigma I think cannabis is

rich away a few of those fears already.

But

they were talking to Kevin

Matthew is the guy in Denver who we who got us or start,

and Kevin was like,

you need to talk to a couple that morris and daniel

Excuse me.

They...

You just need to chat with them. So like you didn't say much about us. But then

the team here started to

go on Facebook and look us up and

turns out

they had already... They already knew my husband through his time at Stacy Council, and when they were working on cannabis reform for the city,

So they had my husband's

cell phone number

already, which was

extremely fortunate.

And at this point in time, we've connected enough dots and I like, I had identified key people in the city that, you know, if we were to do something,

This is her who you'll do work with And one of those guys of adam manager.

Who is

the Cannabis guy in Dc,

So my husband

sends me tax message, and he's like, I guess who I just talked to.

Could. You should be anyone.

He's like I'm a manager. They wanna take a dinner white talk about I know. I was like, let's

interesting.

So,

again, not really thinking that I would be running a campaign, but

we

we went out to dinner. I shared the experience that we went through and what we did,

and they were like you are the perfect person to, like,

spear a campaign. And just be the face

of

healing in Psychedelics through City, Dc.

And I was like, you were in shade not never

that campaign pain and I dana it. I know It was they was true I was convinced that, like,

they had taken crazy pills because like, I was... I was never that person.

Even speaking in public was terrifying to me. I was so cool with just being in the background.

No That's crazy. Yeah. But

so we had a back of we year a few months back and forth about doing this campaign. And I was like,

or...

You know, they got to a point where, like, we wanted to get on the general election ballot, like, the big

presidential ballot you can get way more of voter turnout out. Which increases your likelihood success,

And they tied time debt where they were, like, December of twenty nineteen was, like, the last

opportunity to

get the paperwork to the border of election so that everything can get approved in time and that we have time to get signatures and submit everything to get on the general election about it.

So we have been going back and forth with them and

it was then, like, trying to convince just do this, and we're, like, no No. No. Will help in the background. So I like, we're not gonna do this. So then Adam calls me and he's like, you know, I

like, you know where I stand on this? I think you should do this, but I completely understand if you don't wanna do this.

And I was just like, I can't. I can't guarantee

my children's safety in this situation,

like, at the time, nobody was talking about mental health. Nobody was talking Psychedelics.

I didn't know what was going to be said about me, or was gonna be sent about us.

I didn't know if they were gonna not get invited to kids parties from school anymore, like, with all the moms of school, like, just completely turn away from me and, like, think I'm some weirdo

like drug person that is just you know,

abusing my children and, like, having drugs in our house and feeling dangerous. I I had to like, go through that process. Like, figure out what was a worst case scenario.

And

I don't know this phone when it we went to bed and I was waiting and pen out she should so upset, and I like, you should feel good about the sister.

You know? Like, you got

the thing of the hanging over your head for a few months, like, you don't wanna do it. We we can't guarantee

what's gonna happen to our family.

But, like

why you upset I was like, I feel like this is opportunity.

The the last thing that Adam said, he was like, if you don't do this queue, if you don't wanna submit this paperwork like, we're gonna go ahead and do it anyway.

So

I knew that if I wasn't involved in the campaign that it would look drastically different

than what the campaign that would be run by me would look like. And the messaging would be different. And I don't know if it would worked.

The cannabis activist god bless them or are loud and,

you know, very open about their use cannabis

and

that is

that ten. That strategy can be really divisive with certain corners of politics.

And

I knew that

you get one shot at a first impression

and it's same with this issue.

Same with anything. You have one shot to make your big sl on public,

Did I want it to be a big loud campaign that was really colorful and, like,

you know, in your face or

with a campaign that was run by a working mother

that was blood with compassion and with back and science and

experience and experience and personal experience with, you know, and and

extending

compassion to others and being open and honest about what I have gone through and what is wrong with our system.

How would that look? And I just had a feeling in my gut that if I was running this campaign that it would be successful

because

people would hear me.

And in my mind just like, well, if I

a person who, you know, how to support a family

had, you know,

no trauma in my life that was my truly super notable.

If if I was that close to taking my life being the well resource person that I am Being a very privileged person that I am very fortunate to have the life that I had.

If I was that close to suicide,

how what is this experience like, for other people,

you know, that don't have the resources that I have.

That, you know, don't have a spouse so that's really supportive or, you know, have parents that they can fall back on.

So

I knew that I had a feeling that this issue was much bigger than

than what it what we were hearing

from society.

And

I knew that if I was... I took a chance

And I said, if I'm just opening and honest, hopefully, people will be receptive to that. And

understand why I took the rest that I did,

and

maybe they will that make them feel compelled to take action and

you know, demand that our governments

take this issue seriously

and past laws that support people that are dealing with these kind of issues.

So

the very next morning, I woke up I call it

and I said, okay.

I'm gonna do this campaign. He got so excited.

So I'm calling the attorneys right now. We're gonna draft up all the paperwork. And we're gonna go board elections today the last day. Oh my gosh.

So we submitted it on the very last day, and it was... I remember just seeing, like, my address on official, like vaglio initiative paperwork, and I was, like, holy shit. This is very real like this could totally blow up in my face.

But in my mind, like, I went through what the worst case scenario is, Like, we're banished from society. We are marked as the weird people. We have our scarlet letters on us.

And,

you know, and I told my husband are was, like, if that happens, we can just pick up in move if we've been in Dc for twenty years. We've navigated

through, you know, two recessions now,

you know, we've we've had really... We have really great work experience that we could just take somewhere else and no one will know who we are, and we can just start over. So that was my compilation prize like, okay. There's... It's not the been of the world. If this doesn't work out,

at least I have my house. You know? At least I feel like I've got my life back

I can go and take what I've learned from this experience. Just so not gonna live some tomorrow and let peacefully,

But, again, you plan and God.

Yeah

So we...

After we submitted the paperwork,

we were about to get on a road trip to

south where our families live.

We were going to Alabama for Christmas.

And I think that whole right home we're were just kind of like,

oh, shit. What did we just do? Like what what is our life, like, we we were like, because as soon as we got back from the holidays,

I was kicking off the camp officially. So I knew and after the holidays was through our life was forever change

in one way or another.

And

like, we they didn't really talk about it with his parents.

I never talked about this with my parents, they are not, like,

they were... My parents are very cool in many regards, especially from, like, their immigrants. So, usually, parents or immigrants are, like, super duper abstract and

I'm very protective of their children, like, they risk so much to create a new life in the Us for their children. And my parents are pretty cool about things, but this

No. No. It. They would have

been like, most you can't do this campaign

and I really think this will be a career or career killer for you. And,

you know, you've got two graduate degrees and you you're wasting your career on something like this. And what's the point of doing this? Like, they wouldn't have understood this and no. So I didn't talk to anybody about it. I only talked to my husband about it.

I talked to a few people

that worked at Dc council off the record, and,

you know, some them, like,

this could be successful, but I don't know. You know, it depends on how the campaign goes. You know?

But it was

It was definitely like, we we were walking into the unknown when we were getting back from the holidays. And

but it was... It was it was a crazy experience. You know? Like, twenty twenty was a crazy year for me. I mean, for everyone but I

yeah

how did I sign up? For. Yeah. But also,

probably one of the of the best year of my life. Like, I will never forget that because it shifted everything for me in a completely new direction.

And

I I do feel like I found my voice, and

a lot of these things that you just scare me, like, public speaking and

you know, being on camera,

you know, having, like, fifteen minutes the same. It was just like,

having the spotlight on me

was okay suddenly because

it was so

above and beyond any hang I have, You know, like Oh, I hate some my voice or. I I hate the how I look on Camera. Like, I I

overcame all of that because I knew

this issue is far too important

than to be concerned with something so trivial.

Yeah. My voice or how I look in. Right now.

So I got over a a lot of things and I got a lot of confidence back in twenty twenty

because, you know, recovering from depression is process.

There's not, like, one moment in time. You're like, oh, I'm not depressed anymore. It's like,

very long artist's process. Like, I'd still something I work on to this day.

It's a daily practice for me.

It it involves, like, being active and and having my diet in track. I definitely, like,

don't do it perfectly all the time it took you a while to get to this point even just because a lot of my time post depression has been in campaign you're running a a very new organization in a

an marketing industry. And

now it's it's like this is my next phase of healing really is

putting in into a daily practice and creating a system that works for me so that I'm never in that situation again.

Because, like, one thing that has linger is is anxiety, but I was managing it through, like,

completely diving into my work.

But then, like, in my idle times, it's like, I would sit my brain, would she'll be running, like, a hundred and miles hour because when... I was writing a campaign while working full time too.

So that was like a crazy.

What did they think about you doing this? You know, how does it was it's Dc government? Yeah. Yeah using our very small. So at the time,

that all this is happening Also changed jobs, and I went from being at The Hobbit city Hall.

To being in

in an agency. So I was... I was protected by a few layers of people and also

I wasn't going to the office every day. When I wasn't seeing right having.

I

I had this amazing cover where, like, we

I wasn't going to office. We're all behind

Zoom and

teams

and

you know, it it never...

I made sure that it never deserved my work,

which means I was working around the clock.

I never missed a deadline. I... You know, I I ensure that

my day job was good, and everything was taken care of.

Before I did anything with the campaign.

So

because I knew that if the moment that I would slip up at work, that would be... Then it would be a problem, but if I don't give them it excuse to, you know,

call me out something. And on my work product is good. Like, I that gives me good enough cover. So

I was really fortunate with the timing of all this,

even though running a campaign

with not having, especially a vaglio campaign where you need to get physical signatures by people. Yeah.

Like, that one of money in twenty twenty

right. And that was

sticky waters navigate through for sure. And we had to change Dc laws so that we didn't have to collection signature you're in person.

That you could send the balance to people's homes.

So we had to...

We have to kinda like, weather a period of time

that we didn't know if the campaign was gonna continue. Like, we kicked it off and it was going amazing and well, we even shifted it online started doing whatever we need to do Facebook ads, Instagram, town halls. We did it all online.

And the campaign was going well, but then we had this issue of actually getting signatures

that we didn't know how removed get through it. So

I had to

very patiently wait while Dc council was putting together multiple emergency

legislation packages to make sure, like, things don't just explain

completely explode in the city.

So, like,

you know, protecting health care workers and making sure there's supplies. Like, I remember, like, I felt like, I had to wait for my right time to make our ask because, like, we're just so a bow initiative of campaign about psychedelic drugs. Like, it's...

I I knew that it was not a top priority for Dc to change their laws to adapt to our campaign.

But we got some laws changes in the third round of emergency legislation on the last by basic council that allowed us

for somebody to self certify.

So when you have...

When you're doing a about of campaign, you get signatures and you have somebody that gather or signatures,

and they witness

the person signing that it's actually them and not fraud as somebody just signing names for people.

So there's a, like, Affidavit and everything.

So we to change laws

so that a person can self certify that they've witness their own signature.

So it's like kind of crazy, if we to change the form, and

and my argument was, like, we can't let our democracy die

in the middle of a public health emergency. Like, this is the foundation of everything that we're doing right, You know, the government unless continue.

And, you know, there's elements of our democracy that must continue,

otherwise

we're not a free country and it actually works. So I, it was like the the argument made sense to does they again. Yeah. Yeah.

So

Yeah. After that, we were

off the races.

Yeah. And you led the most

successful

vaglio initiative. Yeah. In the history

of

Dc,

Yeah. I mean,

you know, seventy six percent, that's crazy. Yeah. And now you are the political face at Seasons. Right? Yeah.

In front of psychedelic you are just... Yeah. Yeah. So

we won the campaign by seventy six percent.

I truly think it was because

I'm not too my own horn here, but, like, what it was take your horn.

It was very much like a regular person's story. You know? And I could I am a regular for some story.

It's funny as like the... At one point, I would have, like, news crews at our house and, like, this entire crazy set with cameras lights and all this.

And then Netflix was obviously filming parts in our campaign for I was in how to change your mind. Yeah. I watched that

like I knew.

And I did read. You had a a a wonderful piece. There is wonderful piece written about you in the watch Tony and too. I really enjoyed reading that. Yeah. That was probably one of my the most favorite things out the campaign paint was

the most normal psychedelic metallic ask ever. Yeah. Like

it it was funny to me. It's like I can't play it. And it's weird because on one hand, I would have a

I remember it

the day after the campaign, I was written up in high time magazine

in the Wall Street Journal. And I was like,

This is such a strange

dichotomy right where, like, I'm my name is in the Street journal, but also in high times, which is like an iconic cannabis magazine.

But,

yeah, it was a weird moment like, what is my life. Like, what am I doing? What am I gonna do with us? Like... I got... I accomplice this major thing,

and we educated so many Dc evidence about

checking all drugs and

you know,

what's wrong with our health care system and what's happening with these medicines. And,

you know, I wanted to do something with the I felt like this is an opportunity.

And like I just couldn't go back to my old job. You know? I know you eat I mean, you are now the say of a movement. And, you know, that you you now are connected to... With, you know, you just had a briefing last week. Yeah. Wow. It's just with the things that you're doing. Mhmm. It's just amazing. Yeah. You. That's really, like,all that is very much not about, like, what I personally want to accomplice. But is very much like, what is the need for this... These medicines to get into the hands of American people and the safest way possible in the most affordable way possible. And I truly think that this federal advocacy piece has been the one piece that was missing prior to me.

Creating second Medicine coalition. There was no organizing body kind of creating the strategic pathway forward for Psychedelic federal policy. I had watched cannabis reform just having the policy background that I have and just seeing how that distorted effort was like, the states were progressing, like, rapid fire, and then the federal government was you know, left behind. I mean, they're they were really left behind, but I think that Canvas industry was so, excited about the progress of was b managed shaped I a lot of focus went there, And then there wasn't an effort to organize the voices and cannabis reform for the federal government. And

like I said, you get one shot to make it for suppression. So the first impression with cannabis was that there the the obvious flooded the gates and the the quote industry didn't come together and have consensus building. It was very throat, and a lot of what could have been amazing small businesses or small growers, you know, thrive. It was kinda just like corporate cannabis to Them and left the little main behind. And also, there's this huge criminal justice issue that continues to go undergrad.

With the disproportionate amount of black man that are still in prison for cannabis events as well.

People can run to a dispensary and writing, get their cannabis so, like there's a lot of holes in the in the policy space that that never were really addressed so now. You know,

in congress and mind like, well, we're gonna states do what they want.

And

we're

we're not gonna... I'm not gonna hang my hat. There's not a very few... Until recently, there's been very few

senators and representatives I've willing to hang their head on Cannabis. So

seeing that, and then knowing what the space like, a lot of the culture is like,

addition to the West Coast, and it's very much like a West Coast cultural thing.

Which is why I think there was a lot of excitement about the Dc campaign doing so. Well. Mhmm.

But I knew that for this issue to be can have an impact on congress and actually, like, change laws that supported people having safe to affordable access. I knew that I needed to create an association that represents

the entire movement because the sensations are really powerful. This like, yeah That there here you go. There's one association that's been extremely effective in getting

laws that benefit their members. Right? There's a reason why they have offices over on the capital, and they're very they work side by side. They are the go between switching industry and lawmakers, and they do kind of synthesize his eyes what what really needs to make it through and what doesn't it?

And really strategize on on on the path forward. So I created Check medicine coalition,

and we launched it in January twenty twenty one. And we immediately realized that,

like, before we ask for anything, like, we need to educate members of congress. There is very little knowledge

about the potential psychedelic could medicine on a federal level. So since then, we have... I created over two hundred and fifty offices on the hill.

We've done two briefings now. Our most recent one was last week, where we had Tim Far zooming in

with Rick Wo who's executive director maps who's taking Md through clinical trial Fda. Yeah. Who's been who's been up pioneer and doing this for, like, thirty seven years.

Doing it all with answering, no investors. He's got a public benefit corporation that's doing it because he really does want this to be something that the public can benefit from and not an investment play.

So, you know, we are here to really be a conduit for the psychedelic space.

To speak to their federal government and work with them. On addressing a lot of the issues that will need to be addressed. So we have multiple and clinical trial right now. We have May that's not to be approved

psilocybin compass path just city you so excited through Fda clinical trial, though they will be approved probably a year or two after I'm the is approved. This is going to be a part of our system. Absolutely. But

what will just look like and it's not a drug that you can just say this is approved, let's send it to offices so that

doctors can give it to their patients. It's not a traditional pharmaceutical point. This requires, at least a protocol for Md requires to two practitioners in the room at the same time.

Sixteen hours prior to your first treatment with, I believe that there's three that you get, and then there's sixty hours after So this is a huge time commitment to just get one patient through one session with.

And our system quite frankly can't handle that. Like, we barely have enough therapist

for people a lot of this work is is not reversible, so people don't wanna do it. You have to pay on a pocket for it. Yeah. Problem. There's a huge lot in therapist color that can speak to different demographics of people if we've got people that are dealing with racial trauma, they do not wanna go to a therapist that looks like somebody that happens like did in racial terms then, like, it has it, it's you're so vulnerable in these moments and the things that you're dealing with are so deep, that, you know, you you you gotta ensure that somebody's comfortable or otherwise, it gonna be a really bad experience it can like, negative effects on somebody so and even be handled with care. Yeah. Well... Absolutely. This is a completely different paradigm that we're trying to insert in our very rigid health care system. That does not have a mind body connection angle to it at all.

Yeah. It is it's there's a lot that we need to address and, you know, our coalition can be really effective in doing that with bringing people together and getting getting the policymakers makers to understand that this is

not a political bomb that you're taking on. This isn't gonna be brought up in your reelection campaign because that's really what they care about when they're name congress, But ultimately, they're a politician and they you know. They have to cater to their voters. Yeah.

So they are very concerned with getting behind issues that would impact them negatively. And you know, it's just figuring out what they care about and what they've got through in life and, like, finding a way to wedge a story related to In there, you know? And the the first, like, crew to lead the charge in this our veteran. Mhmm. And I think everyone is kind of understanding that, you know, if we could bring to pull our opposite on a political structure together on this issue. This can be really effective and powerful. Like, the one thing that people on the hill have been bipartisan about is Psychedelic medicine.

So veterans are a very specific demographic. They garner a lot of compassion. They've sacrificed a lot for our country, and they've really been dealing with like, a terrible situation with the Mental health swore. Right?

not even in more times, but, like, there's issues that people in the military deal with, like, we had Whiz Buckley who is exactly director of a foundation called No Fallen heroes. Use was a top gun pilot, and

he was at the briefing last week. And he was sharing that, like, his issues didn't come from Combat.

None of them did. It was just the nature of the work, and trying to be in a plane where you're dealing with like multiple g forces and then landing the plane and the noise and the fact that he he constantly hears a noise in his ear to this day, You know, there's the the nature of the workers is so different. So intense that

if we're not addressing any of these issues, Like, I think the military gonna have, like, a... I mean, I think they do have a recruitment problem. But, you know, how effective can they be as an organization if the soldiers aren't well. And that that's that brings together two different angles with the political spectrum. Absolutely.

Lorilee Binstock:

Well, I think your story is also something that's extremely important because you are completely fine isn't before you became a mother they're... And and for women, and I think it's also hard for them to really want to dive into

psychedelics.

I know that there are a lot of articles now coming out that, like, a long mushrooms Yeah. Or, you know,

which I think is great. Because I I also micro and it very effective for me, but I think your story